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Book Shop Chats:
Welcome to Book Shop Chats, your go to podcast for indie authors and learning insight into what it takes to write a book (HINT: You can do it too!!)
Join authors as they share their personal journeys, successes, and challenges, providing you with unique insights into the writing process. The discussions explore into various aspects of storytelling, from character development to plot structuring, ensuring you have a well-rounded understanding of the craft.
Whether you're just starting out or have published multiple works, this podcast is your companion in the pursuit of storytelling excellence. Tune in, gather inspiration, and let your passion for writing flourish alongside a community that celebrates the art of the written word.
Book Shop Chats:
Chess Moves: Political Intrigue in Fiction with Mary A. Odekunle
Author Mary A. Odekunle joins us to discuss her debut novel "The Eight Pawn," a political intrigue and strategy-focused book that offers readers an alternative to romance-dominated fiction. We explore Mary's writing journey from childhood journaling to published author, revealing how she developed her chess-inspired series about a young man navigating political machinations to gain power.
• Started writing through journaling, which helped develop skills in conveying human emotions
• Conceived "The Eight Pawn" during freshman year of university out of a passion for chess
• Follows a methodical writing process: character development first, then worldbuilding, then plotting
• Planned a four-book series divided into two duologies with different protagonists
• Faced writer's block despite detailed outlining, proving even plotters need flexibility
• Building community has been essential to finding readers seeking non-romance fiction
• First-time feedback experiences taught valuable lessons about giving and receiving critiques
• Compares first drafts to initial layers of artwork—necessarily messy but foundational
Mary recommends writing "as if nobody's going to see it ever" to give yourself freedom to explore your story without judgment.
Links:
Linktree (all my links): https://linktr.ee/maryaodekunle
Instagram and Threads: @m.aduraodekunle
About Victoria:
Hey there, I’m Victoria! As a writer and developmental editor, I specialize in helping busy writers bring their publishing dreams to life without the overwhelm. Your story deserves to shine, let's make magic together.
Here’s how I can help:
📖 FREE 7 day Writing Reset: Daily support in your inbox for 7 days.
Grab it HERE
📝 Developmental Editing: Get expert feedback that elevates your manuscript, strengthens your story, and polishes your characters.
✍️ 1:1 monthly support: Revitalize your creativity, map out your novel, and unleash your authentic voice.
Your story deserves to shine, and I’m here to make it happen. Let’s turn your writing dreams into a reality!
📱 IG: @editsbyvictoria
🌐 LINKS: Victoria Jane Editorial
Welcome to Bookshop Chats, where we cozy up with books, creativity and embrace the magical, messy process of writing a book. I'm Victoria Jane, a writer, developmental editor and coach for sensitive, busy writers, and I love to support you on your journey of bringing your story to life. So, whether you're here for inspiration, behind the scenes peeks of what it means to actually write a book, or just some bookish conversations, you are definitely in the right place. And if you're looking for more personalized support, I also offer one-to-one writing support sessions to help bring your story to life, because sometimes you need a little bit of support digging through the noise that is your brain, because same. And if you've got a finished draft, I would love to chat to you about developmental editing. It is my favorite thing. I love supporting authors and bringing their story to life.
Speaker 1:You can find all of the details in the show notes. So grab a coffee, grab a tea, plug in your headphones, go on a little walk and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome back to Bookshop Chats. In today's episode, I am chatting with Mary Mary. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks, victoria, I'm so excited about this.
Speaker 1:Yay, I'm excited too, and I'm thankful that you are showing up when it's late at night in your time zone to chat with me, because I would definitely be in bed at this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but for me I don't really go to bed by this time. I am a night owl.
Speaker 1:I love it, I love it, I love it. Well, I would love for us to just kind of like dive right in and to share all about your book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much. My book, the Eight Pawn, is actually my debut book Like it's the first book I've ever written to be published and it's basically about political intrigue and strategy. Those are the core themes, and when I was writing it I was hoping to do something new, because in the writing space we have a lot of romance, romantic fantasy, and I was looking to do something different. I was looking to write something thought-provoking. So it's basically about um, a young man who has to struggle through endless political machinations and, as the title connotes, he a pawn. He doesn't really have any power when the story starts, so he has to cross the board of his empire's politics in order to amass power and grow. So that is basically like what my story is about.
Speaker 1:That is very, very different. I love that. I find that that, yeah, it's so. I get so excited hearing all of these like wildly different stories and I feel like that's such a yeah, like a thought provoking book. That kind of like challenges your beliefs, and I'm all about those kind of books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting, and when I was writing it I had to go in like blind. Just writing in itself is magical and amazing, and that's just what I can say about this book.
Speaker 1:I love that. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about your writing journey, Like what I guess. Is that something that you've always kind of done, or is it something that you picked up later in life?
Speaker 2:yeah, um. So my writing journey started um, this must be kind of cliche by now, but it started when I was a kid. Basically, I'd always been an avid reader and I used to being an introvert you know, introverts get lost in books so I really used to enjoy reading and, honestly, except you actively decide not to write, there isn't really a way that you can read a lot and you wouldn't feel like you also have stories of your own to tell. So I feel that's how my writing journey began, and so, as an avid reader, I soon realized that all these stories rolling around my head kind of made me began to feel like I had a story of my own somewhere to tell, to somewhere lurking in my heart, and so I started.
Speaker 2:What I first wrote was I started journaling. So that was the first thing that I wrote, and I would say it's a very good habit to cultivate, because once you have a mastery of your emotions, human emotions you will be able to now apply these to your other writing endeavors. So I was, I was a diarist. I kept tons of diaries as a child and, um, over time, I started to hone my writing skills and and, yeah, I just grew alongside of me and I'm a very young person. I'm not whole, I am. I'm in my late teens, so this I feel like I'm still growing, as my, my writing is also growing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. I think that's so true and I think that there's something really powerful about, yeah, just journaling and just kind of like getting your thoughts out of your head and onto paper, and that can be such a great way to like cultivate that creative side of yourself, without necessarily writing a book. Writing a book and that's something that I often will come back to when I'm not feeling like pulled to write anything, it's just going back to that like, just keep it simple, go back to basics and just journal, and it's wild how that kind of can spark inspiration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, journaling it's a very it's. It's so amazing because for the majority of of my life I have written more journals than I have written any books like. So I feel this is something that actually shaped my writing journey and I would even recommend it to aspiring writers to try to journal once in a while to put their emotions on paper, because I feel, as writers, one of the things we struggle to convey. You know, emotions have to be seen physically, but we're trying to put that in ink and it can be really hard. So journaling really helps to put that into perspective.
Speaker 1:I feel that is it Totally, totally. That's such a such a true thing of just being able to even name emotions and figure out how they feel and then from there that's something that you can build on when you are writing your story, because obviously that's what we're we're doing we're showing people these emotional journeys and really hoping that readers will feel something as well when we're getting these words on paper. I would love to hear a little bit about what made you jump from journaling to actually writing a book. Like, was there something that suddenly was like I need to tell the story, or did it just sort of like slowly, kind of evolve?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's, it's an interesting story. So, especially for my debut novel, the eight pawn, ad written, of course, tons of stories before this one, but those ones really aren't like. They weren't even written like with the intention to publish. So when I was in my freshman year of uni, I had this idea about writing a novel series based on chess. And it was actually I was journaling about it. I was like, okay, well, this chess game is really interesting. I was really obsessed about chess, I really loved it. So I was let me, what do you think, mary, about writing a novel series based on this? And that was when I got the idea of the Ape Pond. And back then I knew I didn't have the mental capacity to write something like this yet, because I was just getting into uni, there were a lot of commitments, and so I just wrote down the titles. I like, okay, each of those um pieces, let's like think about writing a book about each of them. So that was how the eight pawn came into um. That was how the idea came into existence.
Speaker 2:So over the years I was still, as I said earlier, honing my writing skills and when I realized that, okay, of all the stories I've written, I felt the eight pawn was the one that deserved to be published, that deserved other people to see it. So that was when I started to seriously think about what I wanted to do about this idea. So the first thing I did when I decided to write was to develop the characters, and that is my writing process as a writer. I developed the characters, I developed the world and then I plotted the storyline. I am a plotter I am not a pantser, I don't know. I just couldn't help not knowing where the story was going. So I plotted. And when I first plotted um the storyline for the pawn, I was intending for it to tell the protagonist's story in its entirety, like him growing from pawn to the other side of the board and getting promoted.
Speaker 2:But over time, as I started writing, I realized the eight pawn could not tell his story in its entirety. So I had to divide the outline into two and now we have four books planned for the series. So the first book, the eight pawn, shows tez actually growing from being this manipulated piece and amassing some power. But at the end we don't get a resolution to the conflict, so we kind of end on a cliffhanger. And the second book picks up from there and actually shows how he grows from this manipulated piece to a king maker. So we have the first two books which have been outlined, and, uh, the second half of the series are also two books, but with a different protagonist. So it's like two duologies.
Speaker 2:So that that's what I planned and um, so I started writing this book, um, in my finals, in my final year, because I really had to like develop this extensive world for like five years. It was really, really, really exciting, and so I started writing it in 2023, december, and took a year to write this first book and it was overwhelming at times. It was really really, and, as an indie author, it was really hard sometimes, and even back then I didn't have any community. I was just this lone in the order in the wild, no community, no social media. It was just me and my laptop. So sometimes it got really hard, but there was this hope of it being one day in the hands of readers and that was what kept me going.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that's so true, like it really is such a process, I think and sometimes that can be really daunting for someone who is just kind of starting out but I feel like you broke it down in a really kind of like doable way, and obviously every writer is going to find their unique way of telling a story. But I think, like how you talked about like working with, like creating your characters, your world, um, and then from there giving some level of outline, I feel like, even if you are like a pamster, there is still a level of like outlining involved in it, even if it is a little more chaotic and maybe not, as in depth, um, but I think that, yeah, the way that you kind of laid it out was a really kind of like very, oh, I'm like, oh, it is very simple that way.
Speaker 1:So that's something that I feel like is such a great way to look at it, of like just focus on one part, right like you can't really tell the story unless you, you know your characters, or you can't like you can't really, like you know, set the scene until you know the world that they're living in and all that kind of stuff. So I think that's such a great way of like kind of like breaking it down into doable chunks uh, yeah yeah, overwhelming yourself. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really amazing and I feel like it's kind of like a pipe thing to do. You know what I'm saying, so so, yeah, it all depends on each writer's personality and how they want to put their story out there. When I was actually starting out as a writer, I used to pants a lot, but I realized that usually those stories weren't completed because I didn't have an end goal in mind. So that was why I changed to becoming okay, I need to know where this is going and how I'm going to get there.
Speaker 1:Yes, I feel like that's such a great reminder and I feel like often if I'm struggling with writer's block, it's usually because I don't have that clarity. So then I have to kind of like go back and kind of give myself some level of outline, just so that we can figure out, like, where this chapter is going or where this section of the book needs to, like, what important points need to happen, right, like. So I think that that's a really helpful way of just looking at it. Yeah, not really understanding where to go, which can sometimes be fun, but I feel like, especially if you want to keep the momentum going, um, having that kind of like outline can be a helpful thing to kind of refer back to. It's not set in stone, but I feel like sometimes it just helps to be like oh right, we need to hit.
Speaker 2:Yes, it definitely is not set in stone, because, uh, lately I opened my outline and I it was like I was looking at a completely different story, because it was just like this road map, but the way I got there in the end was so convoluted and so like. So, yeah, it is. It is really not set in stone, but it's just like a, a guide to know. One thing that didn't change, though, was the start and the end, so, but the middle is open to change, so that was how I did my writing.
Speaker 1:I love that. I feel like that's often the case, like the middle just is this sort of like wild west, of like what is going to happen here and how can we make all of the important things happen and keep the readers happy and all of that sort of stuff. I feel like that's one of the hardest parts to write um, because there's just so much that needs to happen and it's like how do I make it work?
Speaker 2:in a way, that feels engaging and stuff yeah, the middle was definitely the wild west, because I was of the opinion when I started oh, I have an outline, I there is no way I can have writer's block. But it was so I was so wrong and it frustrated me like, come on, just this is what is supposed to happen now. But my brain was like, no, but this really can't happen. So, yeah, I definitely had writer's block, even though I had the most detailed outline ever. I literally outlined every event and yet those events had to change in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I feel like everything is just dynamic and if the story is to maintain its like spirit I like to call it spirit so you have to be open to changing a lot of things yes, yes, I totally, yeah, I totally feel you on that of like.
Speaker 1:Every story I feel like has its unique kind of like energy signature that you're kind of like learning, especially when you're writing the first draft. I feel like you're just kind of like learning all about these characters in this world. So it does take that time to kind of like figure each other out and figure out how this character is going to respond to a certain situation and does that even make sense for them and and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's wild. Uh, it's all the things that you you probably didn't think of when you started writing. I know I was the same. I'm like, oh, it's just a beginning, middle end, like super easy.
Speaker 2:And then you're like, wait a minute, there's so much more that goes into this yeah, yeah, there, there is really so much that goes into writing, and there were even the fact that my characters were set in stone, and I was amazed at the number of characters that needed to be invented for the story to get to its conclusion. So, yeah, it's just um. As a writer, you can't be um stuck in a box. You have to, like, get out there and figure out as you're going along definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, I would love to hear a little bit about how your journey has been with publishing and getting your book out in the world. I feel like that's often like it's it's quite a learning curve, I feel like and uh can often be one of the daunting parts, uh that many of the authors I chat with have expressed in terms of, like marketing and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I just love to hear a little bit about your kind of like journey with that side of writing and being an author yeah, um, my journey with publishing just started, uh, a little over a month ago, because I published Yipon in June.
Speaker 2:So it's been just one huge learning curve, as you said, because I realized that publishing isn't just hitting the publish button and then sitting back with your hands behind your head no, your hands behind your head, no. So I realized I had to learn a lot of skills and to actually get this book into the hands of readers. And I'm still learning and I'm still growing and I really hope I can, I can do what it takes to get my story into the attention it deserves.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's such a process and it's something like it's not really a quick process to that I feel like can sometimes be a little frustrating of like oh, I just I did the things. Now it should like automatically kind of work, but it does take that time to kind of like build and like find the people that want to read your book and and that kind of stuff. I feel it's it's a lot. It can feel quite daunting. So I'd love to hear like kind of what are some things maybe that you've done that have made this process like feel a little less overwhelming, or that kind of like work with your, your current life?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, what I've done so far and what I'm doing currently is I'm trying to build a community of readers and orders because, as I said in the beginning, um, this is a really new kind of story. Um, it's not really much out there, and to get it into the hands of readers, I have to show them that, first off, this kind of genre exists, this kind of political intrigue. There isn't any romance, and so, yeah, um, I'm trying to build a community of. I recently saw someone actually asking for a rec that almost tallied with my novel and I was, okay, okay, we're finding our people. So, yeah, um, I feel, uh, community is what I'm building first, uh, to get myself out there, get people to realize, uh, they've been wanting this kind of story because, as the person said, they were like, okay, I'm kind of tired of romance right now. I actually want something that will make me, you know, think a little.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that is what I'm currently doing and will continue to do. Yeah, I feel like community is such a key part of this sort of like indie well, any author, I feel like whether or not, you're self-publishing or traditionally publishing.
Speaker 1:like community is really key, just with kind of how we consume our media now, with social media being so like like we pretty much everyone has access to it.
Speaker 1:So I think that's just the nature of it and that's, I feel, like kind of what pulls us in to connect with authors.
Speaker 1:Is just that like yeah, that sort of like I don't even know. Like building those relationships online is such an important part of it, because you never know when you know if, even if it's somebody who writes a different genre than you, you never know when they might come across a reader that's looking for the book that you want or vice versa, or whatever. And and that's such a such an important part of the puzzle. I think and I know that it can feel yeah, like lonely when you are writing, like you touched on of just this, like you're you're kind of like head down arguing with these characters and you're like help me, how do I like, how do I do do this? So I think building that community is such an important part of that, of just having people that can connect with you or that you can reach out to when you're like I think this manuscript is awful, um, I'm gonna like set it on fire yeah, yeah, one very thing I had to do in the early stages of writing the upon.
Speaker 2:I remember I wanted to delete the document because this wasn't making any sense. So, yeah, um, yeah, back then I had an order buddy that we used to chat with. Um, honestly, if not for her, I don't think this book would be will be available right now because, yeah, even if it's just like one person, one friend, one person, it really goes a lot um.
Speaker 1:Writing is is already a lonely journey, so having one person to ease the stress really helps definitely, and I think too, especially as you are like starting out like your writing journey because, like, getting feedback is such an like a key part of of the writing you know, putting yourself out there and sharing your book I think really like finding people that can kind of help you break, break that fear down a little bit, cause there is, like I feel like a lot of like the new people, like new writers, are just like, oh, I'm so afraid to share my work with other people, like what if they think it's bad?
Speaker 1:But I feel like there's always opportunity to improve if you're willing to kind of like learn so to to find people that can help you kind of work through those things that maybe you just didn't know or whatever, can be such a great asset for your writing journey. And then I feel like it's a cool way to kind of like start to put some of those, like you know, pieces of like fiction theory into practice when you can provide feedback to the person that is doing the same for you right, like so you can start to see that kind of like how they structure things and how this flows and what is working with their dialogue and that kind of stuff. So I think that's a really important part, um as well, uh, because, yeah, it is. It's really scary to like put yourself out there.
Speaker 2:It's wild, uh, that that like authors are like I'm gonna write a book and I know that people might hate it, but I'm gonna share it with people anyway yeah, yeah, that's, that's the wildest thing, because when I was searching for beta readers for the 8th pawn, I literally had to like shut down my old system after sending out the flag Because I was so nervous. Nobody had ever read my work before. This was the first time. And, yeah, at that early stage, I also think, even though, um, critical feedback is important, at that very first early stage, critical feedback might be a little limited because at a time, if the person said, oh man, even though I knew in retrospect it was terrible, but if that said it was terrible, I I would not have written anything again. So, um, that's why and now when I'm giving feedback, I do it, um, with a part, with, with the thought in mind that this person is really vulnerable with me right now, sharing this with me.
Speaker 1:so, yeah, that's why I do yes, I I so agree with you. Yeah, that's something that I really take in mind when I'm working with like editing clients as well, of just that like it is such a vulnerable experience for them to share their words with you and I'm like this is how can I help you create this magical story, right?
Speaker 1:So it's really about that and it's never. I'm never one to be like, oh, this is bad, like that's not. That's not really something that I ever think of when I'm reading or like consuming art. It's just like how can like is there opportunity to like maybe improve or tweak or shift or whatever? So I think that that's a really important thing to be mindful of of, like making sure that when you're searching for like somebody who can be like a feedback or critique partner or even a beta reader, is like being really clear about what you are looking for in terms of feedback. Like right, like so that you don't crush yourself Because it can like I said, it can I've had those two where I like didn't pick the right person and they're like the grammar is terrible.
Speaker 1:I can't believe that. You like I can't read it. I'm like that that sucks. Thank you, I know that the grammar is terrible. It's a like first draft.
Speaker 1:So, like, just being mindful of that, and I feel like the more you do it you just being mindful of that and I feel like the more you do it you learn how to separate kind of like opinion from like helpful feedback as well. That can be something that is a hard thing to discern of just like. If somebody is like I don't like the character I'm like well, what am I supposed to do with that Like, how can I fix that Like that? You gotta give me something here Like what is it about? Like? So that's something I think to be mindful of like for for authors that are sharing their work with someone of just like, really like. Like you said, like finding the people that are going to like give you feedback that you can kind of handle at that time Like you don't want to like go like crazy. So having people that may be like a friend or someone that you know will be kind can be a helpful like way to kind of like dip your toes into that sort of like scary experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally. So that was, that was my experience with feedback. The first feedback that I got. I almost cried because they were really harsh. They were really like oh you, you, this is really terrible and I knew it was terrible, it wasn't as if I didn't know it was terrible. There's this, um, writer's sense, uh, sixth sense, that you, you feel like this is not actually my best work right now, but yeah, um, they could have said it in the, in a in still to convey the fact that it was bad, but it, it just needed um, some type, some type of uh, polishing. So that that's how I feel about feedback definitely I.
Speaker 1:I often uh, kind of like the feedback is sort of like the. I guess the frame of like a house right, like it's not always like you've got, like your draft is like the really basic. You know things that go into whatever a house is. It's not pretty, but it's all important, right, like you need that stuff.
Speaker 1:And then slowly you get to kind of like build on that and and that kind of thing. But yeah, it is, it's a, it's a heart. I feel like if you haven't cried at least five times writing your book like, are you even a writer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lately, when I got into art, I realized that a first draft was like the first layer of an artwork. Like, for example, if you're trying to draw a flower piece, you have to start with this, uh, red heart, and the red art is not the final piece. I used to go and draw leaves and flowers over it. So that's how I feel about a first draft supposed to be messy, it's supposed to be bad, but it's just really there to like give these characters in the storyline, um, like names and goals, like where, where the story is going to go. So I feel that way about first draft and, yeah, that's just how it is.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Well, I would love to hear what would be some a piece of advice that you would give for someone who's maybe just starting out their writing journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for someone who is starting out their writing journey. Yeah, for someone who is starting out their writing journey, I would say they should write without feeling as if anybody else is going to see it ever. That was how I felt when I was starting out and that gave me the freedom to be able to write it the weird stuff, the cool stuff because I didn't feel like anyone was going to judge me for writing this. So, yeah, um, write as if, um, nobody's gonna see it ever, and once you're able to get it, the story, the full story, out of your system, then you can start figuring out. Okay, now I have to make this um appropriate for public consumption. So, yeah, that's how I feel at that about um any aspiring writer.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's such solid advice. I feel like just you just got to get the story out there, um, and like get it down on paper and then you get to make it pretty after right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, really totally.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, I would love for people, for you, to share how people can get in touch with you and find your book and follow along on your writing journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm usually active on Instagram and threads at maduradefle and all my links can be found in my link tree links to buy my book, to connect with me, to join my writing community at link tree forward slash, maduradekle.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. Well, everything will be linked in the show notes so it'll be super easy for people to find you and your book. But it was lovely chatting with you. I feel like I learned a lot.
Speaker 2:And it was such a fun experience. Yeah, it was great chatting with you too. I was looking forward to this all week.
Speaker 1:It's so fun. Yeah, I love connecting with other authors and just hearing their, their processes and little like you know, fun ways that they kind of like write and things that maybe I wouldn't have thought of, and it always gives me inspiration. So I am I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for having me Thanks so much for listening to today's episode and if you really loved this author, I highly encourage you to go check out their links and comment and share their work because, let's be real, as an indie author, all that stuff makes such a difference.
Speaker 1:And if you're feeling a little stuck on your draft and just want some gentle accountability, check out my one-to-one offers that are linked in the show notes as well. I'd love to support you with your writing or editing journey, and if that's not quite where you're at, I've also put together a really amazing free resource to help with taking your writing to the next level, because there are so many amazing resources available without needing to spend a ton of money or get that MFA or all of the things that you may think that you need in order to write a book. Until next time, keep writing your way and trust yourself enough to tell your story, because I no-transcript encourage you to go check out their links and comment and share their work, because, let's be real, as an indie author, all that stuff makes such a difference. And if you're feeling a little stuck on your draft and just want some gentle accountability, check out my one-to-one offers that are linked in the show notes as well. I'd love to support you with your writing or editing journey and if that's not quite where you're at, I've also put together a really amazing free resource to help with taking your writing to the next level, because there are so many amazing resources available without needing to spend a ton of money or get that MFA or all of the things that you may think that you need in order to spend a ton of money or get that MFA or all of the things that you may think that you need in order to write a book.
Speaker 1:Until next time, keep writing your way and trust yourself enough to tell your story, because, I promise, if it's coming to you, there's a reason and someone needs to hear it.
