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Book Shop Chats:
Welcome to Book Shop Chats, your go to podcast for indie authors and learning insight into what it takes to write a book (HINT: You can do it too!!)
Join authors as they share their personal journeys, successes, and challenges, providing you with unique insights into the writing process. The discussions explore into various aspects of storytelling, from character development to plot structuring, ensuring you have a well-rounded understanding of the craft.
Whether you're just starting out or have published multiple works, this podcast is your companion in the pursuit of storytelling excellence. Tune in, gather inspiration, and let your passion for writing flourish alongside a community that celebrates the art of the written word.
Book Shop Chats:
From Regency Romance to NYT's Best Books: J.M Frey's Writing Adventure
Friends this episode is full of wisdom! Grab an iced coffee and get your steps in.
J.M Frey shares the extraordinary journey of her latest novel "Time and Tide," a sapphic Regency romance that made the New York Times Best Romance Books of the Year list after a 16-year path to publication.
• From idea to New York Times recognition: how a visit to the Jane Austen Center sparked a time-slip romance concept
• Why traditional publishing requires patience—Time and Tide went through 17+ drafts before publication
• Fan fiction as valuable training ground for developing voice, taking critique, and understanding story structure
• After 327 rejections on her newest manuscript, why Frey is embracing self-publishing
• The importance of finding joy in writing again when creativity becomes a commodity
• How returning to fan fiction helped reignite creative passion and productivity
Check out Time and Tide from Wattpad Books, distributed by Penguin Random House Canada, and visit jmfry.net to explore all of Jess's books, including her worldbuilding guide for fantasy writers.
Bio:
J.M. Frey is an author, voice actor, and lapsed academic. She writes queer speculative fiction and fantasy, both fabulist cozy romances and high fantasy epics. Her life’s ambition is to step foot on every continent – only three left! She lives in Toronto where she is surrounded by houseplants, because she is allergic to anything with fur. She is also allergic to chocolate. But not wine.
TIME AND TIDE: New York Times Best Romance Books of 2024
Just a twenty-first century gal with nineteenth-century problems…
When Sam’s plane crashes catastrophically over the Atlantic, it defies all odds for Sam to be the sole survivor, but it seems impossible that she’s rescued by a warship in 1805. With a dashing sea captain as her guide, she begins to find her footing in a world she’d only seen in movies.
Then Sam is betrayed. At the mercy of the men and morals of the time and without the means to survive on her own, she’s left with no choice but to throw herself on the charity of the captain’s sisters. She resigns herself to a quiet life of forever hiding her true self. What she doesn’t expect is that her new landlady is Margaret Goodenough—the world famous author whose yet-to-be-completed novel will contain the first lesbian kiss in the history of British Literature, and a clever woman. Clever enough to know her new companion has a secret.
As the two women grow ever closer, Sam must tread the tenuous line between finding her own happiness in a place where she doesn’t think she’ll ever fit in, and possibly accidentally changing the course of history.
About Victoria:
Hey there, I’m Victoria! As a writer and developmental editor, I specialize in helping busy writers bring their publishing dreams to life without the overwhelm. Editing doesn’t have to feel like pulling teeth—it's the magic that transforms your story from “meh” to masterpiece!
Here’s how I can help:
📖 FREE Manuscript Prep Workbook: Take the stress out of editing with simple steps to organize your revisions.
Grab it HERE
📝 Developmental Editing: Get expert feedback that elevates your manuscript, strengthens your story, and polishes your characters.
✍️ 1:1 monthly support Writer's Haven: Revitalize your creativity, map out your novel, and unleash your authentic voice.
Your story deserves to shine, and I’m here to make it happen. Let’s turn your writing dreams into a reality!
📱 IG: @editsbyvictoria
🌐 Website: https://www.victoriajaneeditorial.com/links
Oh hey, it's Victoria from Victoria Jane Editorial and your host of Bookshop Chats. This podcast is all about authors, writing and the magic that goes into storytelling. We cover all of the things that go into writing a book, from the creative process, from taking your idea to a first draft, creating and cultivating community within the author space, marketing all of the fun things. If you are a reader, a wannabe writer or an author, you will find tips and tricks that suit whatever level you are at. So I hope that you enjoy and you are unfortunately, or fortunately, going to find many more books to add to your TBR, so I will invite you to sit back and listen to the episode. Welcome back to Bookshop Chats. In today's episode, I am chatting with Jess Frey. Welcome to the podcast, thank you, hello. I'm very excited I you are bringing the energy today, which is perfect because it's like the afternoon and I need. I need to pick me up.
Speaker 2:It's because I have a hot toddy. It is disgusting. Outside my window right now, it has been snowing where I live for like a week straight. We are now at over I think it's over 50 centimeters of accumulated fresh snow and I'm like you know what I need as soon as I get home today from walking through all of that hot toddy.
Speaker 1:That's what I need oh my gosh, that sounds like my nightmare. It's snowed, um, I'm like west coast of Canada, uh, with like the one place where it doesn't snow and when it does, the world shuts down and the rest of Canada laughs at us because we can't handle it. So that's that. Yeah, we, we were hit with the snow crazy a couple weeks ago and, yeah, schools were cancelled. It was a whole big thing, and now it's pouring rain, so hot toddy for you too. Yes, exactly, amazing. Well, I am very, very excited to hear all. You have a lot of books out in the world, but I think we're going to be focusing on one that is coming. Coming out or it is out now. That was just released. Oh, amazing. I, yes, I would love to hear all of the details okay.
Speaker 2:Well, it's called time and tide it's. It's from, w by Wattpad Books, distributed by Penguin Random House, canada. It's a time slip, sapphic regency romance, and it was just named to the New York Times Best Romance Books of the Year list.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh that is freaking amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did not expect that at all. I was completely floored. I didn't know it was coming. See most review websites like Publishers Weekly or Forward or the book review stuff like that. They will either send you or your publicist the review a couple of days in advance. So you're aware what's in it. You're aware whether it's good or bad. It gives you time to pull quotes for graphics, things like that new york times. They don't tell anybody, they keep it on the download. You have no idea it's coming. So then I was just goofing around on social media uh, doom scrolling as we do in these days, and a fellow author starts screaming in my dms oh my god, you're on the list, you're on the list.
Speaker 2:You're on the list and I'm like, what, what, what, what list I? I have? No. And then she sends me the link and I'm like, surely not, uh, rose, you jest. And she's like I jesteth not um, and there it was. And it was just like oh, wow, because I mean, you know, when, um, hollywood stars are all like, oh, it's just an honor to be nominated. It really isn't just an honor to be noticed like that, and I haven't been noticed like that with my book since my debut, so it's sort of been I don't expect it anymore. My debut book, triptych, came out in 2011 and it had a a lot of critical acclaim, and then all the other books after it didn't. So I expected this one to be a didn't and then to suddenly be on this list is like, oh, I've, I've forgotten what this feeling feels, like I, I genuinely didn't expect this. Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 1:Forgotten what this feeling feels like I, I genuinely didn't expect this. Oh, that's nice, that is so. That's such a fascinating thing to like sit with right. That kind of you kept showing up despite that right, like that's, that's huge. I think there is that. I think all part of us, when we're putting the book out, like we want, like see there's part of our subconscious that is like oh my gosh, like, please, like it, please, like it. Let's be of our subconscious. That is like, oh my gosh, like, please, like it, please like it, let's be good.
Speaker 2:But then there's yeah, you're already writing your Oscars acceptance speech for best adapted screenplay. You know, right, like it's coming.
Speaker 1:Netflix is obviously going to pick it up, and you know Adam Brody's going to be in it, Right Cause he's like the hot guy oh yeah, right now You're a hot guy, oh yeah right now you're hot guy, all right, I'll take it. I'm still stuck on Tom Hiddleston, so oh well, I mean yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't disagree, so I yeah give me some accents and I'm all for it, oh what does that mean? Take a Brit and dye him black there's just something about, yeah, something about the accents.
Speaker 2:I, I, yeah, I really way, which is why I wrote partially. There's a good segue. Thank you so much, um. Which is partially why I wrote time and tide, because we all love our British period dramas and the story for this novel did come out of my personal adoration of of Regency romances and Jane Austen and Bridgerton. Although I wrote this far before Bridgerton became a thing on Netflix I had never even heard of it when I wrote the original draft of this book.
Speaker 2:But it's a story about a Canadian 21st century bisexual disaster gremlin woman who, whose girlfriend, loves regency era period dramas, but she's the one who falls back in time and everything she knows so she's an inconsistent scholar. She, she only knows what her girlfriend has forced her to watch. And it's this story about somebody with our accent and our knowledge and our culture and our values and morals being stuck in a place where she's not allowed to be herself and she's not. She doesn't know how to communicate. The language is the same, but the language is not the same, and everything that she knows is from a heightened period drama anyway. So half of what she knows is is. Is was just made up for dramatic effect anyway oh, true, I love that.
Speaker 1:It's like. I feel like this is my favorite part of of connecting with authors. It's just the the, the ins, like. I love hearing the stories that are created that is just like so fascinating to me of like that was in your head and you put it on paper like that is freaking cool well, and it it had been in my head since 2008 or 2009 because, um, I was an academic before.
Speaker 2:Uh, I left academia, academia to pursue creative writing full time and I had been sent by my school over to Cardiff to do something with BBC Wales and Doctor who and the University of Cardiff. And while I was over there I was like well, you know, I'm, I'm a nominal J night, I'm going to go to Bath, I'm going to do some tours, I'm going to go to the Jane Austen Center. And while I was in the Jane Austen Center there was there's an exhibit that's a framed letter written by Jane Austen and you can see her signature on it. Literature around this I don't know if it's exactly on the plaque said something to the effect of the fact that this was one of the few remaining letters in existence written by Jane Austen, even though she and her sister, cassandra wrote one or two letters a day to one another when they were apart, because back then mail was delivered three or four times a day. Back then mail was delivered three or four times a day. Almost none of these letters existed.
Speaker 2:Thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of letters, and it's because, after Jane died, cassandra burned them, asked her why. She, without saying it, basically said there, jane austen, my sister is private to me and by the time jane had died, um, at the age of 43. She published four books. Her last two books were published, published posthumously, um, but it was sort of an open secret that the anonymous author of sense and sensibility, pride and prejudice, mansjudice, mansfield Park and Emma was Jane Austen and she was getting famous and then she died and Cassandra was like I don't like the idea of all of these people knowing my sister's private life and my sister's secret. So she burned all these letters and I understand why cassandra did it, but I kind of hate her a little bit too, just as a writer, because we've lost all of jane's process, right like I respect cassandra's choice and I respect the privacy of the austin family, but I'm, I'm, I, yeah, and I can't even say I actually hate cassandra, I'm just sad.
Speaker 2:Yes there's something about jane's process that we have lost, and so there's a lot of things that we can only guess at. Why did she write it like that? Why did she not go through with her engagement to harris bigwither? Why? Why did she spend her whole life with her best friend, martha Lloyd, who only married after Jane died and married Jane's little brother? By the way, interesting, like I keep thinking, was Frances Austin. Mary Lloyd's beard Were Mary and Jane or Martha. Sorry, martha Lloyd, not Mary Lloyd. Were Martha and Jane something more? Because they were childhood friends and every time they moved after the Reverend Austin died, martha moved with them, and then Cassandra burned 3000 letters and only after Jane's death did Martha marry Francis, and only after Jane's death did Martha marry Francis.
Speaker 2:Very, and that's where this story came from. I was like, well, what if Martha and Jane were lovers? What if they were partners? Yeah, what if they were committed to one another? And what if I throw a 21st century disaster by time traveler into all of this? And then, of course, you know, I started writing and it was like, no, actually I need to fictionalize this. I can't. I can't offend the day nights, but also I want to respect the Austin family's life and legacy. So I fictionalized Jane Austin as Margaret Goodenough and, but it's basically sort of the same idea and I was carrying that kernel of an idea with me since I visited the Jane Austen Center in Bath in 2008.
Speaker 1:That's wild, that is like that's so bad, like how it's, like that tiny little like it's. That's what I love about writers is that we see those tiny little things, those little crumbs that you're like this would be an amazing story.
Speaker 2:There's a story here, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's something here, or it's just the subtle like. I feel like like a look. Like if you're watching a movie and there's like a scene, like a subtle look between two characters, you're like I there's. We could do something with this, like how can I put this into words on paper?
Speaker 2:And I started in fan fiction. So when I first started writing it literally is a look between, yes, two people where you're like, oh, oh, I can envision an entire scene happening after this, where they go and bone and have a kid and pick out curtains together.
Speaker 1:Um, why didn't they put it in, actually, yeah obviously, um, that's definitely where I started.
Speaker 2:I mean, like most fan fiction writers, I started with writing Mary Sue's when I was, you know, 12, 13, 15. As one does, you graduate from elastic play on the playground where everyone's like I'm a ninja turtle and you're a ninja turtle but, there's only four ninja turtles and you can be like I.
Speaker 2:There can be five, I can be a girl turtle and you make up your own turtle. This is before venus existed. That's how old I am. Um, you make up your girl turtle and you play with the boys, so that that kind of self-insert, elastic imagination play that you see in children on the playground graduates into mary sue's and from there, when people have figured out how to force themselves into a narrative or first their own identity into a narrative, then they learn how to craft character.
Speaker 2:So I love Mary Sue's, I love reading other people's Mary Sue's. I actually wrote my master's thesis on the importance of Mary Sue's to the creative writing process and to the maturation of specifically female presenting writers, because I think they should be celebrated. Because how else do we force our own identities into a world that otherwise excludes or overlooks or others them? And once you've done that for yourself as a Maryary sue, then you can start writing original work where your personal identity, your sexuality, your ethnicity, your culture, your disability, your speech impediment, your mental health issue, you can portray that in an honest and authentic way on the page. Because you've practiced by being, by writing mary sue's, would you practice pretending to be an infant turtle?
Speaker 1:I thought it mind blown that's.
Speaker 2:That's what I there's 15 000 pages of my thesis distilled into three sentences that is that well, that that's epic also.
Speaker 1:But like that's why I never really had thought of it like that. But it's so true, like writing fan fiction was such a like it was so important. I feel like yeah to to the journey of the time when I was like, oh, I really want to write a book, but I'm scared to admit I want to write a book. And then just all of those random strangers that are like I posted it. Um, they're like, oh my gosh, like please, keep writing, I can't wait to read. And then I look back at it I'm like, oh boy, this was not very good, but props to you for enjoying it. But it taught me so so much. Right, like it helped build that confidence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we we talk about in sports. I think it was Wayne Gretzky who said something to the effect of you need 10,000 hours on the ice before you can be an NHL level hockey player. As a writer, you need 10,000 hours on the ice, and fan fiction is an amazing way to do that, because one of the things I see with first time writers who are sitting down to write an original book and they've never written anything else outside of creative writing class in high school is they don't understand their own voice. They don't understand how to build character. They don't understand how to analyze story structure or narrative structure or subtext or anything like that. All they know is there's a story in their head and they're going to try to put it on the page.
Speaker 2:People who have written and read fan fiction have a much stronger understanding of their own voice, a grasp of what makes a character, what nuances a character, a much stronger grasp of how narrative structure works and even things like the difference between, uh, flash fiction. Um, like you know, in the Sherlock fandom, the 221b is where they try to write a whole story in 221 words and the final word ends with a b. That's a very, very difficult writing exercise like that is up there with uh for sale baby shoes never worn right. Like that is difficult to do, and when people can do that, they have such a strong grasp of storytelling and their own voice. And so then, when they graduate into original fiction, they already know what they're doing.
Speaker 2:They've done their 10,000 hours on the ice and on top of that they learn how to take critique If they have beta readers. They have learned how to take bad reviews and criticism If they've been flamed, like I have. They have learned how to take stock in comments that lift them up and dismiss comments that are trolling, which are all things that again. I see debut pitfalls, that I see debut authors fall into reading their Goodreads reviews and then, like Anne Rice, arguing with them publicly where everybody can read them. No, and if you do that with fan fiction, you're going to get eviscerated. You learn not to do that.
Speaker 1:It, it's so, it's so true, and I think it's like, at the end, like what's at the end of the day, what's the point? Right, like that's the thing. Is that like why, like what? What is the point of that? Um, I get it like I know that you fiercely love this book, baby, that you've put out into the world. Um, and you want to defend it, yes, but also it's like what I love. You might not like, right like it's, just it's recognizing that art is so subjective.
Speaker 2:So well and kink tomato um, so back um again. This is how old I am back in the live journal days. Oh, oh my gosh, I remember that. And I predate. I have to say I predate not only live journal, but I predate fanfictionnet and I predate yahoo groups. I wrote my first fan fiction on brave net.
Speaker 1:I wrote mine on paper, so I don't know if that. Well, yeah, actually like the, the streams of computer paper that was all connected to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I still have the first one that my me and my high school friend wrote out, illustrated, colored with pencil um, but yeah, the, the kink you matter, which is basically um, my kink is not your kink and that's okay where it's it. It's that etiquette, where it's like you learn that if you don't like something, you just hit the back button. You don't attack somebody for it, you don't dox them, you don't drag them through anything, you just hit the back button and find something else.
Speaker 1:I think that's such a great reminder. Like, honestly, that's why I just I couldn't like. I won't review a book if I didn't like. Like it's not for me. What's the point of that? Like it's, it's not.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say it's bad, like somebody else might not think it like that yeah, and and I find that I mean I, every once in a while I do when I'm feeling bad about myself, I will go to Goodreads and I will filter for five stars only and I will just read to make, to remind myself that my stories actually touch people. And then every once in a while I'm feeling masochistic and I will read the one star reviews, and sometimes they are so hilarious. And my favorite one, my favorite one ever, was a review for the untold tale, and the character in the untold tale calls herself a feminist and this guy gave it one star and went on this whole screed about how he liked the book. The book itself was fine, but the term feminist is sexist and it should be called equalism and dude. If you don't like the term feminist, don't give my book one star.
Speaker 2:Uh, we call those werewolf cookbook reviews where someone is like this was a great cookbook and I did all the recipes in them and they all worked and it was so delicious. But I only like books with werewolves in it and this book didn't have any werewolves in it. One, one star.
Speaker 1:Like. What was the point? Like, why Like? Why even waste your time typing? You burned calories to do that.
Speaker 2:You could have saved them.
Speaker 1:Right, that's just wild to me. I mean, that's just the nature of it now, right, that now people really do have the opportunity to share their opinion anywhere they want. So even if, even if their opinion is unfounded, right and I think that's a great point to bring up, especially for, like I feel like debut even anyone right, like there is that element of just you will never be for art right like yeah, really like anchoring that in um.
Speaker 1:So I'd love to hear, like how that process has been for you, obviously going like writing so many books like you've. You've been been around like you've done the things, so yes, yes, I have can.
Speaker 2:Can you hear the world the the war weary veterans, like the war-weary veterans smoking? Yeah, I've been there, dude. I mean I've written 17 or 18 books and I've published 12. So I'm working on my 19th or 20th book right now Right, something like that, I mean, and, of course, all the fan fiction before that. I very much enjoy being a storyteller. I was a child actor. Of course I love being a storyteller. I was a child actor. Of course I love being a storyteller, and I have had my frustrations with Tradpub and I actually have a massive frustration with them right now.
Speaker 2:I can't sell my new book. I just got my 327th rejection on this new book. Publishers Weekly Best Books of the Year in 2011. New York Times Best Rom books of the year in 2011. New york times best romances of the year in 2024. And nobody wants my next book. 327 agent rejections.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I, I'm out of people to query. There's nobody left in the industry. Um, and, and it's just. I'm not going to be a special snowflake about it. I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum.
Speaker 2:It's just something in the book that I've written isn't hitting. I don't know if it's the zeitgeist, I don't know if it's that it's not quite mainstream enough. I don't know what the issue is. I don't know if it's that I told it in second person, not second person, first person present, which I know is a hard sell. I don't know if it's that the narrator taps the fourth wall, like in Jane Eyre and my Lady Jane. I don't know if that's the hard sell. Every rejection that I've gotten has been quite nice, especially the ones after the fulls, the full requests, but every single agent cited a different reason why it wasn't working for them. If more than two had said the same thing, I would have addressed it, but more than two have never said the same thing. So I mean, yeah, I have had my frustrations with traditional publishing, but in the end I'm so grateful and delighted that I get to tell these stories and that people want to pay me for them.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that's huge. I think that's such an interesting thing Like I wouldn't have thought. I think there's sometimes this, this misconception that people have that like you've got a traditionally published deal, like you're shooing for your next book, like it's automatic, but then, as you said, like it's really like I think we often forget that traditional publishing is big business. It's big business and the amount now with the like, I feel like even the amount of money that's going into books, with book talk and books, are like I feel like it's insane. So obviously they're going to want to make money off of your book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think they're even more shy about taking risks than they used to be. I mean, okay, well then I will. I'll tell you the story of Time and Tide, because I started it in 2008 with my first agent. I'm currently querying for my third agent. There's information for you? Um, I got my first agent. I, I, um. Let me rewind this story.
Speaker 2:I wrote triptych in 2007 ish 2005 to 2007 and signed it with a very small press here in Canada in 2008 or 9, and it came out in 2011. Did gangbusters? I was so shocked. Publisher's Weekly Best Book of the Year list starred review right out the gate, nominated for a bunch of awards. I went down to New York for award ceremonies and I queried my next book, the Skylark Song, to a handful more agents, took three phone calls, chose one agent. He turned out to be very much not a good fit. I couldn't have known that at the time. I didn't. I don't really have author friends yet. I had a few, but they were all in kid lit. So it was really difficult to figure out if I was making the right choice and after about a year it was clear that I very much had not made the right choice. He left me crying on the street corner in New York.
Speaker 2:And that's great, great fodder for a story, but also not when it's happening to you no, and in that time I had finished the skylark song and he wanted rewrites and rewrites, and rewrites, and he wanted it to be more and more insipid, and he was really looking for my strong main character to turn into a little girly girl who needed to be rescued, um, which I was not into, and this was sort of just before the hunger games hit. So it was really hard to be like. No, I actually want her to be like katniss everdeen, because katniss everdeen didn't exist yet or in the public conscience. Obviously the book was out by then, but I didn't know it existed it. I don't think it had been a movie yet. Um, and then I wrote what would eventually become time and tide and I gave that to him and he's like I don't understand this either. Is it a historical romance? Where's the swooning? Where's the britches? Where's the balls? This isn't. Again, you're not doing what I expect you to do, you're not treading the middle of the road for the genre. And I was like well, I'm, I'm from the fan fiction oeuvre, right, like I'm, I'm never gonna do what you expect. Um, and we eventually parted ways. Actually, he left me crying.
Speaker 2:I went to the Abbott Center to go do book con with my editor, you know wiping my eyes and the first person who handed me tissues turned out to be one of the agents I had originally had, one of those three agents I'd taken a phone call with and I'm. She gave me her name and I was like, oh, I made such a mistake. I wish I'd signed with you I don't know what I'm doing and thanked her for the tissues and left and I guess, from what I understand, she turned to her assistant and said I can't believe I let that get away. So she called me sometime later and she was like when, when you're free, call me, let's talk. So I left my first agent. I had a conversation with her, I signed with her. She sold the two Skylarks. I wrote a fantasy series, a meta fantasy series for her. She sold those three books that ended up turning into a four book deal.
Speaker 2:Um, and then, after we had done those, those six books, I gave her Time and Tide and she was was like I don't get it, I don't get it, it's not, it's not middle of the road, it's. It's. It's not time travel romance in the way that we understand Outlander. I don't really get it. And again I was like, okay, well, I don't know what to do with it, I guess I'll just put it on this newfangled app called Wattpad. Put it up on Wattpad.
Speaker 2:Um, didn't think much more of it, I just thought, okay, well, this is one that just didn't work. And then, um, wattpad gave it an award and I was like oh, I mean, okay, thank you. There's like this pop-up that came up and said your book is not is is eligible for a Wattie award, would you like to submit? And I was like um, yeah, I guess. And then a couple months later they're like you won. And I was like cool, um, but they weren't publishing adult, they had just started their wattpack publishing imprint and they were only publishing ya at the time. So they didn't want the book, they didn't know what to do with it. They, um, they just didn't want it. So, you know, here's like a third person who's saying I don't understand this book, I don't know what to do with it, I don't want it. And I thought all right, well, I guess I just self-publish it. So I self-published it.
Speaker 2:And then the second agent and I, after some difficult conversations, parted ways. Agent and I, after some difficult conversations, parted ways amicably, nicely. But, um, what I wrote and what she represented increasingly didn't match. So I kept pitching her stuff and she kept going I don't know what to do with that. I don't know where to sell that like. I don't have the contacts for that, my network, I don't know how to do that. So at that point we were like, okay, I don't think that this relationship is working anymore and the best advice I'd ever I've ever been given about agents is, if your agent isn't holding your hand and walking down the path with you, they're standing in your way. So, very parted ways, yep, she went down her path, I went down my path. Um, I self-published Time and Tide and then Wattpad introduced their adult line and they reached back out and they're like okay, we're ready, we're ready for your book now. And I was like, uh, okay, so you know, here it is how many years 2024. And now the book is published.
Speaker 1:That's wild, that's so like I feel like it's so easy to forget that you're playing the long game and it's just because it's a no now doesn't mean that it's a bad book or that it's a no forever.
Speaker 2:Right, so that's what I'm carrying into trying to sell this.
Speaker 1:You believe in you believe in it and you know that it's getting the feedback right, like you have the evidence that people want it, that it's yeah, that it's not a bad book. I think sometimes that's like the thought of it's the book is bad, but it's not necessarily like I mean there could be opportunity for it to be reworked. If you're getting, like you said, similar feedback from you know agents, from beta readers, from, like you know whoever else that you're sharing your book with, then then there's stuff that you can work with. But if you're not getting that, then I think, like really trusting right that it's it might not be the time for it. I think that's something that's really interesting to see, especially with like trends and books and stuff, just things that are like suddenly exploding and then this author is like huge, but they've had 20 books that they've been around for like 10 years and now suddenly you're just discovering them. So I think that there's something to be said about that sort of like it's it's not like I don't think it's one and done.
Speaker 2:It's like keep going right, like you're here for the long game well, and going back to what you said, just because you're getting a bunch of rejections doesn't mean that the book is bad, I want listeners to understand. It also doesn't mean that you are bad, yes, as a writer. Um, so I mentioned that I was a child actor. I was an actor all the way up to the age of 20, before I got hit by a car and couldn't do it anymore. And some of the best advice that I ever saw this was after I was auditioning I'm not really doing auditions anymore on a late night show. And she said and this is the best advice about rejection ever is when you audition, you walk into a room.
Speaker 2:It's just you standing there and there is a group of people sitting on the other side of a table judging you and you walk in there and you think they're going to hate me, but that's not true. They're looking for the perfect puzzle piece to finish the puzzle that they're putting together. And the minute you walk into the room, they want you to be that puzzle piece so bad, they want you to be the perfect fit, so bad before you open your mouth, before you open your eyes, before you introduce yourself. They want you to be that puzzle piece as much as you want to be the puzzle piece, and if you don't fit, it has nothing to do with you. And when you are querying a book and an editor or an agent or a publishing house does not take it, it has nothing to do with you, it just means that the puzzle piece that you're walking into the room with holding in your hand doesn't fit what they need.
Speaker 1:That's such a great way to look at it and it just it takes away that. Yeah, because it can so easily turn into like I'm bad, like it's a personal failing, like if only I just, you know, took more writing classes, or whatever. The story is right.
Speaker 2:but it's not that it and maybe the puzzle piece doesn't fit because it's not polished enough, maybe you haven't done your 10 000 hours on the, maybe it's a poorly plotted book, maybe the typos are distracting. But it doesn't mean it's a bad puzzle piece. It just means it hasn't been sanded down yet. It doesn't mean it's a bad puzzle piece. It just means it hasn't been sanded down yet. It doesn't mean it just hasn't been painted yet yes, that's.
Speaker 1:So true, that's so true I feel like it's it's. There's always opportunity to rework it. I I think yeah to a point obviously, like there's a point where you're like this is as good as it's gonna get um. I think, but these are these are the hills I'm willing to die on, like right, like I'm not gonna change this like this, it would just, it would completely change the trajectory of the story, right so.
Speaker 1:I think that's important to also know of like where, where you're willing to give up some creative freedom and where you're like no, I'm not.
Speaker 2:This is I. I know a lot of self-published and now I'm saying this with love because this book that I can't sell. I have decided. I have a couple more agents to hear from, but I have decided that I am going to self-publish it. It will be my first fully self-published book if it doesn't get picked up by one of these agents, but at this point, after 327 rejections, I'm not feeling very confident. I've decided that I'm going to dive in feet first and I'm going to self publish this because I believe it is a good book, I believe that I've done a very good job on this. I think it's spicy, I think it's funny, I think it has an important message to tell um, I want to share it with the world. Uh, so I'm going to self-publish this.
Speaker 2:So I have great respect for indie self-publishers because, just even trying to navigate everything that I'm gonna have to do, I've self-published my backlist all of my previously traditionally published books. For some reason or another, the rights have reverted to me and I've had to self-publish those. But I haven't had to do anything beyond taking an already edited manuscript that I had left over from the last time I worked with an editor, plopping it into a typesetting program, buying some ISBNs or, in the case of Canada, going to the National Archives to get them for free, um, designing a couple covers on Canva and plopping it out into the world. I haven't done all of the work you have to do to like, launch a book and market it and, um, make it a totally original cover and find editors and figure out arc distribution and all of that stuff. I have huge respect for everybody who does that, because I I'm staring down the barrel of it and I'm terrified. But I also want people to choose to self-publish very deliberately. It is not easy, it is not cheap, it is not fast, not if you want to do it correctly, and I talked to so many authors who are like well, I've chosen to self-publish because I want complete creative control and I'm terrified of all the creative control I'm going to lose if I go traditional, public, public.
Speaker 2:And again, just going back to the acting thing, which I think has served me very well as as a writer, no actor in the history of acting has ever become an Oscar-winning sensation or a huge Broadway star without coaching, without classes, without taking direction, no director has ever become Steven Spielberg without or George Lucas without taking classes and making some stinkers. I mean, have you seen Peter Jackson's Bad Taste? I mean, have you seen Peter Jackson's Bad Taste? It's a funny movie but it's not Lord of the Rings. I tell you, no singer has ever become Ariana Grande without taking classes and visiting coaches and being in sessions. And no writer in the history of writing has become Ernest Hemingway without beta groups and talking to the Fitzgeralds and working with his editor.
Speaker 2:And one of my favorite things about working in traditional publication is handing my book to somebody and saying you know nothing about this, make it gooderer. Yes, because nobody who signs a book signs it because they hate it. Every single person who signs your book and wants to work on your book does so because they love it. And when they say I really love this, it. And when they say I really love this, I really love this, I really love this. But what if at the end of the book, instead of this, this happens and you go, oh my god, like your, your brain turns into rainbows because you're like of course, that's so much better than what I thought of you know there were, there's specific editors where I will write the first two-thirds of the book and give that to them and then go okay, so now, how does it end? I mean, I know how it ends, but how does it end?
Speaker 1:because then it's better, right, that's such a it's so right. I think that there's I don't know I I really am that type of person where like create creativity, like it thrives in that community, that collaboration kind of aspect, yeah, um, of just really like wanting to make the story the best it's as it, as it can be, and like working with, like editing clients that's what I want to do with their book of like how can I make this, make your story stronger, so that readers fall in love with your characters?
Speaker 1:yeah and become just like engaged in the story, like turning the page, like that's what you want, right and and what you're so close to it as the writer, it can be easy to miss things or to put stuff in that you know isn't really needed, like stuff, like cause. You just don't see it.
Speaker 2:Right, or think you put something in that you only actually put it in your head.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, that too, right Like, your character is needs to translate like this on paper and they have this really quirky person but it doesn't actually show up anywhere, or there's one word right Like. So it's all of those things that go into writing and I think yeah, I think there is a little bit of that misconception that self-publishing can be sort of like this quick thing, but there's so many moving pieces. I think probably the only major difference is that you can pick when you're going to publish it versus if you're traditionally published.
Speaker 2:There's usually quite a gap from when the book is like bought to yeah actually publish generally speaking, I'd say three years, yeah, and and faster, for shorter books or for cleaner books, or if your publisher is like oh, I definitely want this out by christmas this year and I have, like the untold tale, the first book of the accidental turn series, the fantasy series that my second agent sold. Um was the least edited book I've ever edited, like the. The version that you buy on the shelf is draft five. Oh, wow, like, wow, like. I wrote it, I polished it, I gave it to my agent. She was like I have these like four small edits. She gave it back to me. I fixed those things in a weekend. I gave it back to her. She sold it. The editor came to me and said I want to change this moment, this moment, and chapter 11 is too long, long, um, oh, and can you write an epilogue? So I did all that and I had it back to her in a month and the book was on the shelves nine months later, ten months later, like it was a quick book, but I'm in tide.
Speaker 2:I signed the contract um, um with, uh, wattpad W by Wattpad books in February of 2022, I think. Yeah, I handed in the final draft February of 2023, or maybe it was February of 2024. Yeah, I handed in the final draft, so it's 2023 that I signed the contract. Yeah, handed in 2024, and it was published November 2024. So just over a year and a half. But that was the I don't know 17th or 18th draft of the book. Cryptic was 64 drafts. Skylar was 70 something, but that's because I got lost in the weeds trying to follow the advice of that agent who didn't understand what the book was so like. When I finally sold it, I think what I gave them was actually draft 20 something, like I just went all the way back to my archives and said this is a good version. This is the not muddy version.
Speaker 1:Let's start here yeah, that's so fascinating to me of just yeah, just all of these, like I love, like the mechanics that goes into like a story and how it all gets put together in the background and how it goes from this like messy draft of random characters to like the final thing that you see on like out in the world.
Speaker 2:I find that really it's wild to me well, and with the, the book that I'm hoping to self-publish this year, when I finished writing it it was 215,000 words. It was the first book in a while where I was like I'm just gonna write till I'm done telling this story. And then when I did my first real good, solid edit on it, I got it done to 178. And then I actually did query that version around a bit and people were like, oh my God, it's too long. And I was like, all right, cool, I mean, it's shorter than anything by Julie Tornado or Guy Gavriel Kay or George RR Martin or Susanna Clark, but sure, all right, it's too long. So I got it down to 150 something, mostly by just going through and taking out words like just oh, that'll get you every time, yeah really yeah, yeah, really just that, um, the, the passive voice stuff.
Speaker 2:So I mean, yeah, I think I cut out 20,000 words by just going in and polishing, and the version I'm trying to sell now is 1,000, 136,000 words, which is roughly the same length as most of Casey McQuiston's books, which is one of my comparables. Okay, okay, when I'm comparing, when I'm pitching yeah and um, I think if I self-publish it, I'm going to take this 136 version and the 150 version, do a like a compare notes on word yeah, and put some of the lush descriptions that I cut out back in, because I definitely did sacrifice some descriptions of the love interest's hair glinting in the sunlight and well you need that in the book.
Speaker 2:It's like important information how else are they gonna know that his freckles shine like gold flakes under the sun? Um because he's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's just why, like all of those things that you wouldn't like just going into it, like you wouldn't have realized, um, like I didn't when I first started writing of, like word count and like comparable, like all of these, like the things that you have to think about, um, yeah, beyond writing the story, um is is wild but that's something that you you don't realize.
Speaker 2:You have to think about when you're independently publishing too, because word count equals pages and the more ink, paper and glue is required to make your book, the more costly your book is going to have to be. So is your book good enough to charge $35 for that paperback? Which is why a lot of agents and editors and publishers say we're not going to look at anything in genre X above 100,000 words. We're not going to look at anything in genre. We're not going to look at anything in category romance above 100,000 words. We're not going to look at anything in cozy mystery above 95,000 words, because that's the sweet spot for the genre. But also, can you justify having a book that expensive Like, uh, brandon Sanderson's new book? I have a friend who's a bookseller I think she said the paperback like the trade paperback. They had to charge 40 something dollars for it in the bookstore. Oh, wow, to make a profit. Wow, and people will buy it because it's Brandon Sanderson. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. I wouldn't have thought that, that yeah again, these are all things that I wouldn't have thought um, that go into like buying, yeah, Bu, or whatever um yeah.
Speaker 2:Or putting together your indie book yeah. So if people will spend 40 for brandon sanderson, will they spend 40 for you, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, that is the question. Yeah, and yeah, I feel like, with e-books being like so accessible, that obviously can take the cost out of that part, but then obviously I feel like there's something really magical about having a tangible book. Like I want a physical book, so I want people to be able to buy it.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, no, exactly, and again, that's it's. I've learned so much in traditional publishing that I feel like I'm walking into indie publishing with my eyes wide open, right, I? I know what I have to do and I know the sweet spot I have to hit. But you know, I have like 300 data points on my to-do list, on my excel sheet, because I'm obsessive like that yeah, it's, it is quite a's, it is quite a lot, it's it's.
Speaker 1:I need a nap. I feel that it's just like there's so many, so many pieces that I feel like I've barely even scratched the surface. Well, it's, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. That's, that's my, my, my mentality right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have to be creative enough to write the book.
Speaker 1:oh, I know right, like that's the other part of the piece of the puzzle, of just like really making sure that your life is kind of set up to allow that to happen. Um, because if you're not taking care of yourself and self-care, like all that, like you're not going to be writing, like I, just like you're going to be burnt out. The words that do flow are not going to be very good.
Speaker 2:So it's really I mean better wrong than not at all. Yes, that is true, that is true.
Speaker 1:Better the wrong words than no words Than no words. But if you're yeah, if it's stress and just like, look like I want to write for fun, like I want to have some joy in the process.
Speaker 2:I will say I stepped away from fan fiction for a long time because every time I was writing, I felt I need to be writing something saleable, I need to be making money, and I finished this book, the I'm gonna call it the dragon book the dragon book I've been trying to sell. I finished it, I started querying it and then, of course, the advice is always start another book. While you're querying this book, start another book, start another book. And I I was so burned out. I was that kind of burned out where not only is it trying to pour from an empty cup, it's trying to boil an empty kettle. If you keep turning on an empty kettle, you're just going to burn down the kitchen.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I just I couldn't do it and I stepped away and I actually reactivated my Tumblr and I was like I just need wonderful, creative, nonsense, chaos in my life. And then the Sandman TV show came out and I saw all of this great fan fiction and, for the first time in like a decade, I was like I want to write fan fiction. When I tell you that I wrote a 60k word fan fiction in 11 days, and I look at that was back in 20 2022 and I still look at that and go how did I do that?
Speaker 2:oh, I don't know because I was doing it for fun, right, I was doing it for the people who were like, oh my god, this is amazing. I love everything about this. Please, I can't wait for the next chapter it was. It was like oh, this is, this is why I'm a storyteller. I've forgotten. I've forgotten why I love doing this, and it's it's not for the accolades, it's for when someone says, oh my God, I didn't know, someone else knew about this obscure moment of Tudor history. And here you put this in a story with Hobgadling, holy crap. It's like, yeah, you know, I watch Lucy Worsley too.
Speaker 1:Right, I think that's yeah, that's the magic I think it can be. It's hard when, when creativity and art becomes like it's a commodity, right, it becomes a business becomes a chore instead of a joy, right? I think that there's. There's something like you do need to step back and find that thing, whether it's writing or something outside of writing that is filling up your creative cop, because otherwise it's just it's not gonna be fun again.
Speaker 2:Oh, I miss it when I'm gonna get the tardis back out. It's like a three thousand dollar costume. I should do. I need to. I need to add another panel of fabric. I'm not a size eight anymore, but you know that thing goes brop brop when I walk and it's got lights and it's got embroidery. I'm gonna wear it again. Why is it sitting in the back of my closet?
Speaker 1:right, yeah, I feel like the just like that. I feel like this is the year of just like doing the thing and just playing and just like whatever, who cares, like I'm gonna enjoy it and it's gonna be fun and it's just yeah, there's something so free about that, I feel and I'm going to publish self-publish my dragon book because I like the story damn it yes, some dragons are hot right now, so you better like get them out into the world, love them yes, literally hot people are eating them all up.
Speaker 1:There's like a whole big thing um. I haven't like delved too deeply into the fantasy world um my daughter's. Like please read fantasy. Like I just don't know if my brain has the capacity at this point yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:I do still have that like new story shyness when it comes to like the, the lockdown crud brain that you get where you just. I just want to, just want to re-watch the young Victoria 700th time.
Speaker 1:I don't want to watch something new yes, yes, there is something to be said about like the comfort shows, the comfort books. It just I need predictability. Well, I feel like we like so much amazing wisdom. It was super fun um chatting. Uh, I would love for you to share how people can get in touch with you and get their hands on all of your books, because I feel like we need them now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, okay, yeah, I, I think everyone needs them now. I think everybody listening to this right now. Um, and they can do so at jmfrynet. Jmfrynet, just click the little tab that says books. I have 11 fiction books and one nonfiction book. I actually put out a textbook called World Building Through Culture, a workbook for storytellers to help people. Maybe this is the year that you do fantasy. Maybe it is this is the year that you do fantasy, maybe it is. This is the year you build your own fantasy world using my textbook.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I do have one that is kind of in the works, sort of Avalon-esque, you know, vibe. So I don't know, there's something there. I don't know if it's the time yet, but it's, there's some notes. So we'll see, we'll see. But I definitely feel like that would that would be a fantastic resource, because I need all the help I can get.
Speaker 2:Well, the first part of the book is all explanations about what culture and cultural bias and hegemony and all of that the cultural iceberg is, just explains what a culture is from an anthropological standpoint and sociological standpoint. And then the back half of the book is like here's a question, here's a bunch of lines for you to write the answer yes, so fun.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Uh, well, like I said, I feel like I learned so much I'm you have so much, much knowledge. You have much knowledge and thank you so much for sharing it. Uh, it was super fascinating.
Speaker 2:I I'm so glad that we got to have this chat. I'm very excited I'm always excited to speak to a fellow Canadian.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it's so nice to, yeah, it's so nice to meet more of us there's so many of us, but I feel like it's always. There's something super magical when I get to connect with them and they understand the little quirks of language and things that we say yeah, no yeah, yeah, right, I feel like I need to put that in one of my books.
Speaker 1:I'm like I have to. Yeah, no for sure Like it, just it has to be in there. Oh yeah, I know what it means. Will everybody else I don't know? Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I would love if you would leave a review and also if you loved the author that we chatted with. Go find them on social media and hype them up, comment on their stuff, share their work, even if you can't buy the book. These kinds of things are great ways of supporting indie authors and getting their book in front of new readers. And if you are a writer or author in need of a developmental editor, please reach out. I would love to chat. Everything is linked in the show notes and it would be an absolute honor to be able to get eyes on your novel. So thanks again and listen to the next episode.
