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Book Shop Chats:
Welcome to Book Shop Chats, your go to podcast for indie authors and learning insight into what it takes to write a book (HINT: You can do it too!!)
Join authors as they share their personal journeys, successes, and challenges, providing you with unique insights into the writing process. The discussions explore into various aspects of storytelling, from character development to plot structuring, ensuring you have a well-rounded understanding of the craft.
Whether you're just starting out or have published multiple works, this podcast is your companion in the pursuit of storytelling excellence. Tune in, gather inspiration, and let your passion for writing flourish alongside a community that celebrates the art of the written word.
Book Shop Chats:
Writing is a Marathon, Not a Sprint: K.C. Harper's Publishing Path
Victoria Jane welcomes fantasy and contemporary romance author KC Harper to discuss her publishing journey and creative process. Casey shares insider perspectives on traditional publishing, genre-switching, and character development techniques while revealing both the rewards and challenges of the author life.
• From voracious reader to published author after a simple challenge from her husband
• Working with an editorial agent who helps polish manuscripts before submission
• The terrifying acquisition process where "money people" decide a book's fate
• Switching genres provides creative refreshment from complex world-building
• Reading your own manuscript 6,000 times before publication
• Creating characters with unique dialogue patterns and body language
• The importance of finding critique partners who understand genre conventions
• Learning to differentiate between helpful critique and unhelpful criticism
Author bio:
K.C. Harper grew up on Canada's east coast and spends her time plotting to destroy the happiness of her characters. She’s an avid reader, developmental editor, and a full-time human servant to a 4.5 lb teacup Chihuahua. She's represented by Helen Lane at the Ki Literary Agency.
Book blurb:
Loving Kane nearly destroyed Briar once . . . now that he’s alpha, he could be her end.
Briar’s life collapsed the day Kane abandoned her four years ago, leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. Now, she needs his help. She has one shot to save her V-addicted brother, as long as she can solve a series of murders plaguing the city. It’ll mean diving head first into the political minefield of the supernatural elite and going head-to-head with the new alpha. He’s dangerous, he’s devastating, and he just so happens to be the man who obliterated her world all those years ago.
The deal: fake being his mate to solve the case.
The cost: everything.
As catastrophe looms and old passions ignite, Briar is faced with the impossible choice between loyalty and love. While the killer is watching and waiting to strike.
Links:
To keep up on my publishing related news or purchase my books, people can sign up for my (semi-frequent) newsletter at my website:
https://linktr.ee/kcharperauthor
About Victoria:
Hey there, I’m Victoria! As a writer and developmental editor, I specialize in helping busy writers bring their publishing dreams to life without the overwhelm. Editing doesn’t have to feel like pulling teeth—it's the magic that transforms your story from “meh” to masterpiece!
Here’s how I can help:
📖 FREE Manuscript Prep Workbook: Take the stress out of editing with simple steps to organize your revisions.
Grab it HERE
📝 Developmental Editing: Get expert feedback that elevates your manuscript, strengthens your story, and polishes your characters.
✍️ 1:1 monthly support Writer's Haven: Revitalize your creativity, map out your novel, and unleash your authentic voice.
Your story deserves to shine, and I’m here to make it happen. Let’s turn your writing dreams into a reality!
📱 IG: @editsbyvictoria
🌐 Website: https://www.victoriajaneeditorial.com/links
Oh hey, it's Victoria from Victoria Jane Editorial and your host of Bookshop Chats. This podcast is all about authors, writing and the magic that goes into storytelling. We cover all of the things that go into writing a book, from the creative process, from taking your idea to a first draft, creating and cultivating community within the author space, marketing all of the fun things. If you are a reader, a wannabe writer or an author, you will find tips and tricks that suit whatever level you are at. So I hope that you enjoy and you are unfortunately, or fortunately going to find many more books to add to your TBR, so I will invite you to sit back and listen to the episode. Welcome back to Bookshop Chats. In today's episode, I am chatting with Casey Harper. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm very excited.
Speaker 2:We were chatting a little bit before we hit record and I am so ready to hear all about your book, so you have one out right now and a couple more coming out this year, which is amazing, yeah yeah, it's, this year's gonna be a busy year and I hate to complain because it's the good kind of busy, but there's just a lot happening behind the scenes right now, with like edits from multiple books all at once. So it's it's good chaos, but chaos nonetheless.
Speaker 1:Right, it's, it's exciting, but it's still, I imagine, quite overwhelming in some ways too.
Speaker 2:Well, last month, like in January, I got hit with five deadlines back to back to back, and so, yeah, it was, we've got through it, it's good, we're all like it's on, it's rolling. But yeah, sometimes you're just and the thing is like everybody thinks that writing the book is the hardest part, but once you kind of enter that publishing realm, it's actually the deadlines. The deadlines are what will get you, but but yeah, it's, it's part of the process. It's, but yeah, it's part of the process. I'm not going to complain about it because I'm lucky to be here, but at the same time, it is one of those ones that you really have to budget the time for it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. So I would love to hear about your books. Now, you are traditionally published, so typically I'm chatting with authors who are self-published, so obviously I would love to hear a little bit about kind of that experience, or whatever you feel called to share or that you can share about that experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. We, when I signed with my agent, we my agent is an editorial agent, so she helps kind of go through and like clean up the manuscript and get it perfect so that you know by the time you go out on submission and she's shopping it to the publishers that it's in the best shape it can be in um. And we were lucky enough that within three months of being on submission that we got interest from pachette and my uh, my um imprint is hotterscape and so they, you know, said, you know we love it. But of course then it has to go to acquisitions. And the thing with acquisitions is acquisitions like your editor can love it to death, but acquisitions is, you know, the money people. So they have to kind of essentially present a marketing plan to the money people that says we think this book can sell, and so that's the scary part, because that is completely out of your hands and it's kind of completely out of your editor's hands to a certain extent. So so you're just, there's a lot of authors that will make it to acquisitions and then either don't make it that far or they get further. It's it's. It's kind of a crapshoot once you get to acquisitions, but, but we were lucky enough and you know, and my editor was phenomenal and my team has been phenomenal, but yeah, so Shadowed Moonlight is a fantasy romance book and it's about Magi, so essentially a witch, and she has the ability to read auras and so, but what she reads in auras is she reads your past, so she has the ability to look at your aura and see everything that's happened to you in your past.
Speaker 2:So her brother is addicted to a lethal venom called v, a lethal drug, sorry, called v which is vampire venom, and he, um, she's trying to get the cure for him to get off this because this drug is slowly killing him, uh, and then a series of murders start happening in her city and the conclave, who are the kind of the head honchos that run the city, her supernatural city, kind of pull her in to say you know, we need you to help read the bodies of the dead. But she ends up in that process being paired to solve these murders with her ex, who is now the alpha werewolf and one of the conclave members, and, uh, he destroyed her, like four years previous. So it's kind of an enemies to lovers, forced proximity, uh, type story and and fast-paced, um very fast-paced story, so go, go, go from the beginning. But yes, it's uh yeah, high stakes, lots of angst, um open door.
Speaker 1:Just yeah, yeah, go go go, love it, love it, love it. That's so fun. It's so fascinating to me how, like a fantasy authors like the worlds and magic and things that they create is just it's so wild and it's so cool to be like, wow, like that came from your imagination and you put it on paper.
Speaker 2:Well, sometimes when you're doing your read throughs, you're like did I write that? You know you have a moment, because sometimes there's like big gaps between when you read and you edit, and so you know you come back and you're kind of like, well, that's a really good sentence or, oh, I should rethink that one. That was you know. Yeah, so it's. No, it's. Sometimes you surprise yourself with your own ideas and it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are great little moments sometimes, so that's so cool, yeah, I feel like it's just it's. It's really. There's something magical about being able to put that like scene or character on paper and be like oh my gosh, this is, this is how I pictured them, because it's hard to get that from like your brain onto the, onto the paper, onto the page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes you'll see those memes where it's like you know the vision in my head and what actually came out on truly it's like a pinterest fail.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is not it at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you know, those are like I kind of like to have those be my first drafts and then I, you know, build it from there. But but yeah, it's essentially it's sometimes it's like I had a different vision in my head. So, yeah, yeah, but no it. You know, that's, the good thing about first drafts is that they're just, they're just the idea on paper, and then you can fix them, and you can fix them, and you can fix them.
Speaker 1:So a hundred percent. I think that's such a great reminder is that, like the first draft is, it's just gonna be like kind of a mess. The story, the character, like you're just kind of also just meeting these characters too, so you kind of have to get to know them and it takes some time to, like you know, sit with them, edit and figure out like who they are, like actually who they are. I feel like they can sometimes be very surface level the first round and you're like, yeah, this isn't it, like we need more depth here.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well then, that's the thing. That's the thing I try to remind myself, because, as you're going through the drafts, every once in a while that imposter syndrome will hit, or you know, and you're just like nothing is final until it's published. So I can fix this until it's published. So yeah, but of course, like the further into the rounds especially with traditional publishing you go, the further into the rounds you go, the less ability you have to make changes. But like, by the time you reach proofreads, you're, you're only allowed to change, like a word here, or comp, like, or if there's something that you find last minute that's like, oh, this was a plot hole, then they'll, they'll change it, but like it's gone to formatting at that point. So you have to, you really have to make sure that by the time you finish your copy edits that the story itself is pretty, is pretty tight.
Speaker 1:That's a really good. That's good to know, I guess. Yeah, because there's so much money like being funneled into the printing and the marketing and all of that stuff that really like it needs to be on and you need to be like on it.
Speaker 2:Yes well, and, of course, like, every change you make introduces the possibility for error again. So you know you could miss a word in this sentence or you can miss it, and so, of course, like each person in the step, so your, your developmental editor is one person and your copy editor is another person and your proofreader is another person. So if I start making sentence level changes by proofread, then it has to go back to copy edit. So it it. Yeah, so it messes up the whole process. So you have to make sure it's nice and tight by the time it hits proofread. So, but it's, you know, it's good and it's great to have that many eyes on the story, but but you're like the, the handing over from copy edit to proofread is a terrifying handover, because I'm like, okay, here we go, that's it.
Speaker 1:Like you know, yeah, I can't make changes now, so oh, yeah, I imagine that that would be quite terrifying uh just to be like okay, this is it, it's done. Um, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:That's it like uh, here's the story you know, like short of changing a word here, or you know that's, that's it, she's, she's locked, yeah, so it's. You know like short of changing a word here, or you know that's, that's it, she's, she's locked, yeah, so it's. You know it's a great feeling because you've put so much work into it, but it's a terrifying feeling at the same time. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're like?
Speaker 2:I hope we caught all the plot holes.
Speaker 1:I love it and I feel like too. Like there's how many books have had things pop, like it doesn't matter how many eyes have seen the book. I swear that you look at it and you're like how did we all miss this?
Speaker 2:Well, and that's the thing, Like, even you know, even with Shadow Moonlight, like there's, you know, there's bound to always, even in traditionally publishing, there's bound to always be an error, like a word, something. Because you know, at the end of the day, it's a human system, it's people who are reading these pages and you know, as the author, you're the person who's most likely to miss it, because you're so your brain will fill in the gaps for the words and or things that are missing, or I'll fill in the gaps for the plot holes, because I know how it's supposed to go, so, having those extra eyes, but again, it is a human system, so there's, there's bound to be errors somewhere along the way. And, and yeah, so that's part of what's great about sometimes with, like, the arc readers and things that they may catch stuff for you like, oh, thank you for that. But but, yeah, but, yeah. Again, with the arc readers, even at that point, it's just a word here or a period there. We can't go back and change a plot, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, that is very good Good information to know, a little daunting, but also kind of like I kind of like that that you know it's once it's done, it's it's done. And you can kind of be like okay, like I can let this go.
Speaker 2:Yes and exhale.
Speaker 1:Right, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:That's super yeah.
Speaker 1:I find this so fascinating to hear like kind of the ins and outs of like what that looks like when you do have a team and you are, you know, obviously going the traditional publishing route, because it's a lot different when you're kind of doing it on your own and you're doing all the things Absolutely Well.
Speaker 2:I like that. And you're doing all the things Absolutely Well. I like that. So much respect to indie authors in that regard, because the level of work that goes into that I hats off. You know it's, I'm, I'm, I'm forever in awe of indie authors for the amount of work that they put in.
Speaker 1:I, yeah, I think honestly like hearing what you're saying, like there it's just in general, like the amount of work that goes into writing a book is is a lot and I think many of us that start out we don't really quite realize it and we're like you mean, like we don't just write the story.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know, I didn't realize how you know, there's a reason. They say write what you love to read. Because if you're writing a book by the time, if you're planning to publish, by the time it's published, you're going to have read it 6,000 times. So you better like the things that you're writing. Because, yeah, and and that's the thing I did not realize when I started this journey, how many times I would read my own book, like I feel like I could recite it at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's so true. You're like I just want to set it on fire, like we're done now. I've had enough. I've had enough, I can't handle it. Yeah, um. So obviously you've got this first book out, but you also have another book coming out in um the summer. That is a completely different genre. So, yeah, I would love to hear a little bit more about like what you whatever you can kind of maybe tease about that book or even just your experience like writing different genres.
Speaker 1:Obviously like that's got to be a little bit of a mind switch.
Speaker 2:Yes, so Rearview is the title.
Speaker 2:So Rearview is coming out with HarperCollins Harlequin in August, on August 12. And it's a race car romance. So it's in the sports romance field. It's my first contemporary. I've never jumped genres before. I'd only ever written fantasy romance previous to that.
Speaker 2:But I read a book last year and it was Say you Swear, by Megan Brandy, and there was just something about that story that just hit so hard for me and I was kind of like I, it made me want to try another genre and I, I, when I sat down, I was kind of, you know, coming up with ideas and like what I wanted to do, and I ended up like kind of homing in on this race car romance idea. And the thing was I've only ever written series before Because, like same thing, shadow of Moonlight is a trilogy, it's a three book series. I'd only ever written books that were a series. So I think you know two, three, four books ahead when I'm writing, and so having to write a standalone where I'm like what do you mean I have to wrap it all up in one book, I can't like I can't. You know, usually I'll start a thread that's going to carry forward two or three books and and I would come up with all these ideas I'm like this book is going to be about a 600,000 word book. It's just you know that's not going to work. So even when I finished writing it in the first round, it was over. It was about 105,000, which you know, when most contemporary romances range from like 70,000 to 90,000 words. So I was way over word count and but it just you know, I kind of had to learn.
Speaker 2:So I'm, I was the same thing. I'm in awe of authors who can write standalones, because that was a whole learning process for me on how to like wrap up a story in one book, and so that was, that was fascinating and fun. But but yeah, I, I, I love now having both genres because while I absolutely love and will always write fantasy romance, I kind of look at contemporary romance like a palate cleanser almost. It gives you a bit of a breather from all of the world building and stuff. And of course there is still some world building in contemporary. But there's a whole other beast when you're doing fantasy, because you know each like each, like the witches have to have their world building, and then the werewolves and then the vampires, and then this, the world itself, and like it's a whole, and then the politics of the world itself. It's a whole beast. But uh, but this one I just I absolutely loved writing that. So, uh, so Rearview is about a man who is an ex-con rally racer and he has a really kind of sordid past and he's racing now and his past is kind of a secret and he's trying to keep it a secret and he ends up meeting Raya and she's the FMC, raya so, and she's the FMC and and she has her own secret where she's being stalked by a stranger, and so, you know, their worlds collide and it kind of goes from there.
Speaker 2:It's a slow burn romance and, you know, with a toucher, and I kind of vibe yes you, you've got me, you've got me right there he falls first and she has major trust issues, so it's it's just uh, yeah, it's it, and he falls first and he falls hard.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's, it's a it's. It was a fun story to write. I I had a blast writing it, so I was very excited. Um to pair with Harlequin, because you know their romance is their jam, so yeah, Right, yeah, that's amazing, I love.
Speaker 1:I love that and I feel like like writing different genres, as as an author, is such a good like as a challenge, and I feel like there's something that really it does kind of push your comfort zone a little bit of like Ooh, like this is so different than what, like cause I find every author I connect with, they have that one that they're like oh, this is easy, like this is what I like, this is what I love to write, this is what I started writing, and then sometimes they'll like try something a little different.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I feel like it's a really great thing for you to like grow as a writer as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, absolutely, and I'm very like, I try to be equally plot driven, as I am like, of course, like for a book to be qualified as romance, romance has to be the primary plot, and so I, you know, I, I try to have the plot and the romance rely on each other and feed into one another. So, like the story is driving the romance and the romance is driving the story, and, and so there's you know a lot, I shouldn't say a lot going the story and, and so there's you know a lot, I shouldn't say a lot going on, there's, but there's there's enough going on that it's propelling the story, and and which is part of why my stories kind of tend to be, I think, fast-paced, although this one is slower paced than is my typical I'm usually my stories move pretty quickly, but, but, but yeah, it's a slow burn, but the plot is constantly moving.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's really cool and I think, too, having the characters now I find in, especially in romance, of just having characters that have a lot of like depth there it's not so surface level, I feel like is it like as readers like we want more like real, raw, relatable characters and it's really showing up in in romance and there's so much more representation for, like mental health or even things like that's very interesting of like having like an uh, somebody who's been to prison, like a man like that's that's a really big thing, like like a heavy trauma that I feel like he would be carrying. So and I feel like often many of us kind of like make up stories about like what that means about that kind of person. So I think that's a really interesting way of, yeah, bringing showing, showing who he could be, um, with that sort of past in in his life.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and you know, it kind of immediately sets him up as a bad boy, um, but uh, a bad boy with a good heart. So you know, those, those are the ones we love, those are the ones right. And it's so funny because there's certain things like that in real life that you would stand for, that in a romance, like in real life, you'd never stand for. But in a romance you're like have at it, like the whole alpha male thing. You're like I'll buy those books hand over fist, but in real life you kind of pump the brakes, don't do that.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's certain things that are like it just doesn't translate into real life as it does on paper, yeah or yeah. It just kind of doesn't quite hit. Um, and I feel like maybe the difference is the vast majority of romances are written by women, so maybe that is what changes it a little bit yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it's, it's, you know, we have our, our book standards and then we have our real life standards and, uh, and sometimes they don't cross, you know, like no, no, no, would it be okay if I held a knife to my husband's throat? No, but in a book, oh my god, it's one of the hottest scenes that you can write, like you know. Yeah, so it's just, I'm very fascinated by the standards, but also, yeah, um, there's such fun things to write at the same time yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's so many like wildly like specific, like tropes and sub genres that people like get hooked in, and I feel like I've barely like scratched the surface and I feel like I'm very vanilla compared to some people, but like you're, but it works because people are like they like it Absolutely Yep. Yep, so yeah, whatever, whatever, flux your boat, right.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, no, it's, it's. I'm very fascinated by it too. And the whole tropes thing and and I don't write specifically to have a trope in my book, but the tropes do end up kind of ultimately being in the book. But but I'm very much a tropes person. So when people like when authors advertise the types of tropes that are in their books, um I'm like I'm very interested, I'm drawn immediately because, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:I'm absolutely yeah. Yeah, I had no idea that that's really what they were called, yeah, like until a few, like years ago, and but it was clear, like these are the type of books that I like to read. It's the slow burn, it's the you know, grumpy sunshine, like all of these things that were always a part of them, but now we just kind of have a name for them a name for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was the same like I until I got into writing, uh, and until I actually started, um, you know, kind of trying to do anything with my writing, I had no concept of what tropes were, and yeah, but like you, like you said, you start reading them and you're like, oh, yeah, no, I love that. I love that. I love that. Yeah, enemies to lovers yeah, give it to me, hand it to me.
Speaker 1:Right 100%. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your like writing journey, like how did you get started on, like, deciding that you wanted to actually write a book?
Speaker 2:It's funny because I actually never wrote when I was younger, ever. I hated it and I didn't read. I didn't. I didn't even actually start reading until I was in my late twenties. And you know, it was like the twilights and I fell into books like that and I just started like voraciously reading and it was just jumping from one to the next, to the next and I was just constantly searching things in the same genre because I loved it and I was just jumping from one to the next, to the next and I was just constantly searching things in the same genre because I loved it and I was coming up with ideas along the way and I started jotting stuff down and at one point I was reading a book and it was one of those like stories that you get so mad at. You're like I want to throw the book across the room and I made this like offhand comment. And it was an offhand comment, it wasn't meant to be taken serious or anything. And I said to my husband uh, you know, I think I could. I can write a better book than this. And he just said very seriously like, not, not sarcastically. He was just like then why don't you? And it was just one of those moments where I was like why don't I, why, why don't I? And uh so, but I had no idea what I was doing.
Speaker 2:So I ended up signing up at our local college for some creative writing classes and like grammar classes, to just give me an idea of how do I build a character, how do I build a plot, how do I do these things. And so I started writing and I set a goal for that year of you know a chapter a month. And on January, the very last day of January of that year, I, at like 10 PM I think, I finished the very first chapter. And it just kind of snowballed from there, cause the more I was like, the deeper I was getting into that creative writing class, the more I was learning about this is, this is how you build these things. And so it took me the full year to write the first book, and that ended up being a six book series. And I wrote the next two books the next year and then three books the following year, because I'd finally kind of figured out my process.
Speaker 2:And for me the process, like you know, I have to know where the entire thing ends, like the entirety, the culmination of the whole series, before I even start the first book, is what I learned through that process. And from there, like, what I'll do is I'll kind of be like, okay, here's where it ultimately starts, here's where it ultimately ends, and how many major obstacles does the main character have to overcome in order to reach that final ending? And if it's six major obstacles, then it's six books. So those, each obstacle will be the ending of each book. And then from there I kind of break it down book by book, like, okay, so how many obstacles does a character need to reach that particular ending? And then you know, so that's for me, how I can gauge right from the start, like this is going to be a six book series, because this is what they need to achieve in order to get there.
Speaker 2:So, so yeah, I, I'm, you know, but I I'd also qualify, qualify myself as a planter.
Speaker 2:So I'm, I'm, I don't fully plot everything, I have bare bones plots. So you know, it's like a page, page and a half, and and it's just kind of like you know what's like a page, page and a half, and and it's just kind of like you know what's like a line or two about what's going to happen in a chapter, but also what the reader is me room for creativity inside the chapters, so that you know I can, I can add or I can build on things, and I'm not. I'm not structure, I'm not stuck to a structure, and you know. I know some people require the structure, but for me I need that room to breathe and uh, and then at the end, when it's written, I'll come back and do like the reverse outline to see what holes I've. You know like what am I missing? Or what? Where do I need to fill? Does this character have enough time on the page? Does this you know like who am I missing on the page? That should be included, especially if they're going to be pivotal later on.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so I just kind of come back and, yeah, fill those holes super fascinating.
Speaker 1:I really I love learning about other writers and their plots and how they figure it all out and I kind of echo similar of like I went in writing, of like not really understanding. You know, a book needs a beginning and a middle and an end and that's it, right, like that. There's nothing else to it. Oh boy, there is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't realize and like I'm on so many levels because it's you know, it's the developmental side, where it's the plot and the stakes and the characters and you know and, and the development and the arcs and all of that. But then there's the line level stuff. You know that, uh, yeah it just you don't realize until you're starting to learn how to do it, just how much is involved and you know, and I love it. But yeah, it was definitely a curve that took me several years to learn and and I was really lucky actually, because I was I started in about 2020, trying to find an agent and I wasn't really having any luck, and when I look back at what I was submitting, I am not surprised that I was not having any luck.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, no, I can see why nobody picked this up, but but yeah, so when COVID hit, I ended up having access to so I think it was UCLA they have a developmental editing course and I believe it used to be in person, but when COVID hit, everything went online and so I ended up having access to it and so I took that program and that was actually the game changer for me, because it was big picture stuff that I was having I was failing at. Personally, that was where I was like missing the mark, and so that, yeah, that was the big game changer for me as a writer was learning how to properly developmental edit so that my story had the proper like build up and flow and and good stakes and, you know, character arcs and things like that. That's that's where I was really missing.
Speaker 1:So yes, that's so huge I. I hands down, feel like going into developmental editing has made me a better writer of just learning all of the things and obviously it's a lot easier to see things on um. You know other people's manuscripts that it is your own, but it still at least gives you something to be like. Oh wow, like this is, this is way too much. I'm just like telling the story to the reader. This character has like no agency and they're total wet noodle and not doing anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, yeah, I've had that a few times no-transcript. The MC is not participating in this at all. Like I need her to do something, like everybody else is doing stuff but she's not participating. I need her to do something here. So yeah, I had to sit down and kind of rework that chapter a bit because I'm like she's not participating.
Speaker 1:So yeah, your characters do really sometimes have a mind of their own, and I think you have to really like work, work with them so that we can like make them come alive on the page, and that's really like, and then readers love them, which is ultimately the goal, I feel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I really try and have my characters like I'm very meticulous, or I think I'm meticulous about dialogue and about, like, body language in association with a specific character. So one of the things that I do when I'm building characters is I will choose, I'll sit down and I'll kind of give like a description to myself of who the character is, like you know what their name is, what they do like what's their career or what's their goal, what you know what's the sport they play, whatever it is that they're doing. And then I choose, like how do I want this character to be perceived? And I'll usually choose like five or six words that describe them like loyal or, you know, obnoxious, depending on the character. And so then every interaction that that person has, I will make sure that the dialogue and the words that I choose and the body language fits the description of that, of what I've, of what I've chosen that person to be.
Speaker 2:And then the only time that they slip out of that if there's a reason for that to slip out of that you know like something happens that they they need to not be obnoxious all of a sudden, or you know there's like there's a, there's a turn that causes the character to shift a little bit, but I'm like this is who that person is and I need them. I I try to write in such a way that you could tell who's speaking even if there are no dialogue tags, and that's that's how I try to like. Everybody has something unique about how they present on the page, so, whether it's their body language or whether it's their their dialogue, that you would be able to tell who was speaking even without the dialogue tags. I'll still put the dialogue tags just for clarity, but but that's my goal is to make sure that that's how it's read that is.
Speaker 1:That's super fascinating. I feel like that's such a great way because often that's like a big struggle that I that I notice in my own writing and then even like with clients that I work with, of just that the character in their head doesn't translate onto paper, like there's a disconnect between some of their like. You know they're really anxious or there's something, but it's not quite, it's just a subtle thing, but it's that thing. That's what makes the character like really really connect with a reader.
Speaker 2:I think yes, yeah, and it's you know, and it's making sure that each one is unique. Because, yeah, I, when I first started writing, I, I thought my characters were unique, and then I very quickly realized, like these six guys read like the same person, like I could literally just mold them into one person, and uh, and so, yeah, it's just it, but you know, it just takes it's, it's just, it's minutiae, um, but you know it, it uh, it ends up mattering at the end. But you know whether, whether you achieve it or not, like I guess that's at the end of the day, the reading is subjective and people's interpretation of your reading is subjective. And so, you know, I, whether I achieve it or not, is ultimately up to the reader. But that's what I'm aiming for yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like that's such a great thing, and having characters that really are unique and different is yeah, it's just. It's it's hard to put into words, but when you're reading them, you can feel that like difference and you're like, oh like. I really know that these are two very different characters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're palpable. And they feel yeah, they're palpable, they feel like real people, they feel like they have real motivations and that their feelings and emotions are. You know, they're almost tangible things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. Well, obviously, you've shared a lot of amazing wisdom, but I'd love for you to share maybe one thing that was super helpful for you when you first started writing or you first decided that you're like oh, I want to write a book.
Speaker 2:So the one of the best things that ever happened to me was getting a writing group.
Speaker 2:It was also one of the most terrifying things because it was the first time. Yeah, I wrote in isolation for the first like four, five years that I was writing and I showed it to like essentially nobody, you know where I would show a couple of paragraphs or something. But I was so terrified and then it wasn't until I decided I wanted to actually try and do something with my writing that I realized I need eyes on this and and if you want to do something with your writing, people are going to have to read it, so you better get used to that. And yeah, which of course is one of the most, it's just so terrifying because you put your heart and soul into your writing and then you know, handing it over to someone to be like, rip it apart, you know, or like, tell me what you think, yeah, and of course, like your, your inner, your inner soul, is saying like, tell me what you think, but only if it's nice. But at the same time, you know, of course you never you don't grow unless you know. So but one of the best things was, yeah, getting that writing group. One because I needed I needed help. The best things was, yeah, getting that writing group. One because I needed I needed help. And two because I needed to start learning early how to take critique. Because you know, if you want to be in this industry whether it's indie or whether it's traditional your books are going to be critiqued and you just you either have to, you know, learn how to to take it right away. Um, you know, learn how to to take it right away. Or you know, or or it's gonna, it's gonna be a rough road and yeah, so you know.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I've learned very thankfully, I was lucky enough to kind of learn quickly is that it is subjective and then to make sure that you know one when you're having people read your book. For me it was, it was important to have people who read the genre so that they understand the genre norms right, so they they understand. You know, if it's not somebody who reads romance, then they don't understand the genre norms. So there's certain character behaviors that that they may perceive as bizarre, which are kind of genre norms for, you know, for either romance or fantasy romance, but but yeah, and then also being able to recognize when someone is giving you criticism rather than critique. So there's a there's a line between the two and and I'm just kind of like you know, if it starts to turn into criticism, I'm like, okay, that's that. I feel like this is a personal thing for that person, for someone. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's directed towards me, but maybe they're coming at this for a different reason, like you know. And so, yeah, it was just kind of learning how to ferret out who the good people were to work with.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean that there are people who compliment me all the time, like I want my books to be, I want them to be critiqued, because if I'm going to be publishing this, I need to make sure that I have people who are honest with me about the problems that are in the book. Those problems need to be corrected because the readers are going to be honest when they read it. So I want it, as you know, as good as it can be before it goes out. But that does you know, it's sometimes you get, you get those and you're like, oof, okay, I, you know, you hand something to someone and you're like this is my best work yet, and then you hand it over and within an hour they're like ah, so I found this problem. I'm like damn it Cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks for that.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Awesome, yeah, yeah, it's, it's just it's necessary, you know, and uh, and it's kind of the the part that I think a lot of us struggle with, but yeah, but it's just it's recognizing that, especially when people are on your team, whether it's your writing group or your you know your publisher, your editor, you know whoever they they're they're there for your success as well. So it's, you know, it's not personal, it's, it's just yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I think that's so true. It's really about that. Like you said, there's a difference between criticism, critique and like your opinion of like just because I like I'm not going to tell someone to change something because I don't like it. Like there needs to be a reason, right, like there needs to be some logic behind why something would need to be changed, why you think something isn't working, and like explaining that is often the key piece of what helps you become a better writer. Even if you're not changing that particular thing, it can just help you become more aware of usually it's often like a common theme. I feel like there's like things that we kind of tend to repeat and we're like oh okay, so I have a habit of really, you know, telling way too much description here. Like this is so that's, that's hugely helpful. I feel like and yeah, it's scary, but if you find the right people, then I feel like they, they know how to say it to you in a way that's like supportive but also helpful.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's the thing, I've been lucky enough, I have a phenomenal writing group. My, my girls are, they're excellent, I love them and you know, and we've been working together for several years now, and uh, but one of the things that I will do and I strongly suggest this to uh, to writers is don't give everybody the same copy. So, or you know, like one thing that I'll do is if I send out, like if I give everybody like the Google doc, if it's just one Google doc, I'll, I'll go through. If somebody leaves a note that's either a critique or you know they're pointing out something that's an issue, I'll screenshot it and then I'll I'll remove it immediately. And or I'll give multiple documents so that everybody has a separate document. And the reason I do that is because I don't want the other people in the document to see the comment and then notice it only because they saw the comment. I want to see if they noticed it on their own, because I find if it's, if it's coming, if you're getting the same comment from two or more people, it's a problem that needs to be addressed. But if you're only getting it from one, sit with it and think about it. So I'll try to remove them as quickly as I can.
Speaker 2:If it's a shared document, just to see, like a few days ago I sent out my first chapter to my girls just to get some feedback on this new contemporary like how's the first chapter flowing? Like you know, it's first chapters are always the hardest because that's where you're setting the foundation, Right. But? And so it was a shared document because it's just one chapter, but but yeah, so a couple of them had left few notes like throughout, about like you know this or that, and so I immediately removed them to see if it was pointed out by the others, just to gauge, and and so, yeah, I do that intentionally, just to kind of see, and if I do get more and more comments on it, and or sometimes you know, when you get the comment, you're like, yeah, they've got a point there that needs to be adjusted, for sure, or I missed that, or but but if it's something you're not sure of, then then I'll wait and see if other people notice the exact same problem, and and then like, okay, so if more than one person has noticed this.
Speaker 1:This is definitely a problem. That's something that needs to be addressed. That is, that's so smart, so simple, yet so smart. I love that Amazing. Well, it's been so much fun chatting with you.
Speaker 2:And I would love.
Speaker 1:I would love to let you share your links where people can get their hands on your books, because obviously need them now absolutely well, thank you so much. Yeah, I'll, uh, I'll, I'll do. I send those to you at the end, I'm assuming, uh yeah, you can just uh we will definitely do that. Um and yeah, it's super.
Speaker 2:I feel like I learned so much and it was um, yeah, just super fascinating yeah well, I'm, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram threads blue sky, like all the major places, and and then my website is caseyharpercom. If people are interested in the links to the books are all are there? Um, book two pre-orders are happening now. Uh, it's called Shattered Moonlight and uh, and yeah, so there's pre-order links there. And then, um, we're going to be doing a cover reveal for rear view soon, I'm told. Um, we just saw the almost final color copy of the cover. Uh, a few like last week. So I'm told the finalized copy is coming soon. So hopefully in the next couple of weeks we'll be able to do a cover reveal for that one. But I'm also currently building an art team for for the rear view book. So if people are interested, yeah, Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, that was, yeah, super fun, so much info. And, yeah, I love, I love learning about other authors and their processes and just their journey, because I find it so eye opening.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Thank you very much. It was a great talking to you.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I would love if you would leave a review and also if you loved the author that we chatted with, go find them on social media and hype them up, comment on their stuff, share their work, even if you can't buy the book, these kind of things are great ways of supporting indie authors and getting their book in front of new readers. And if you are a writer or author in need of a developmental editor, please reach out. I would love to chat. Everything is linked in the show notes and it would be an absolute honor to be able to get eyes on your novel. So thanks again and listen to the next episode.
