Welcome to Book Shop Chats, your go to podcast for indie authors and learning insight into what it takes to write a book (HINT: You can do it too!!)
Join authors as they share their personal journeys, successes, and challenges, providing you with unique insights into the writing process. The discussions explore into various aspects of storytelling, from character development to plot structuring, ensuring you have a well-rounded understanding of the craft.
Whether you're just starting out or have published multiple works, this podcast is your companion in the pursuit of storytelling excellence. Tune in, gather inspiration, and let your passion for writing flourish alongside a community that celebrates the art of the written word.
Exploring Trad publishing & self publishing with Kelly Ohlert
•Season 1•Episode 50
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Join us as we chat with author Kelly Ohlert who shares her personal journey through both traditional and self-publishing. Discover the intricacies of these two paths and what it truly takes to maintain your connection with readers while juggling life's many responsibilities.
Kelly highlights the invaluable role of critique partners and the growth that stems from mutual support and honest feedback. For writers struggling to find the right routine, Kelly offers inventive strategies to weave writing into even the busiest schedules.
About Kelly: Kelly Ohlert is a romance author, who grew up in the Chicago area. She now resides in Michigan with her husband, two daughters, and menagerie of pets. In her free time, Kelly is often found with a book or a karaoke microphone in hand.
BOOK BLURB : AN EX-CITING PROPOSITION
Two friends form a pact to date each other's exes in this adventurous ride for fans of Sarah Adams, brought to you by a mother daughter author duo.
Moxie moved to Colorado armed with a healthy distrust of others and seeking no-strings-attached adventure, but finds herself in a rut. Her job feels repetitive, she lacks close friends, and even one-night-stands aren’t exciting anymore. That is, until a boring night gets interrupted when one of her coworkers comes in, distraught over a breakup. Moxie reluctantly comforts Hannah, but they soon realize they break up with men for opposite reasons. Soon, a pact to date each other’s exes is born. After some waffling, Hannah convinces Moxie to go first, and try dating her ex, Wyatt.
Wyatt co-owns an adventure tourism company with his best friend. He and Moxie hit it off, but her distrust is quickly activated when she realizes that in an attempt to multi-task, Hannah has dragged her into a scheme to end a neighborhood feud, at the center of which are Hannah and Wyatt’s parents. Wyatt must convince the new love of his life that his feelings are real, before he loses her, and the business that is everything he ever dreamed of. Moxie must open herself up to love in all its forms, before she alienates the only friends and partner she's ever had, and digs herself so deep into her rut, she'll never find her way out.
Hey there, I’m Victoria! As a writer and developmental editor, I specialize in helping busy writers bring their publishing dreams to life without the overwhelm. Editing doesn’t have to feel like pulling teeth—it's the magic that transforms your story from “meh” to masterpiece!
Here’s how I can help: 📖 FREE Manuscript Prep Workbook: Take the stress out of editing with simple steps to organize your revisions. Grab it HERE
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Your story deserves to shine, and I’m here to make it happen. Let’s turn your writing dreams into a reality!
Oh hey, it's Victoria from Victoria Jane Editorial and your host of Bookshop Chats. This podcast is all about authors, writing and the magic that goes into storytelling. We cover all of the things that go into writing a book, from the creative process, from taking your idea to a first draft, creating and cultivating community within the author space, marketing all of the fun things. If you are a reader, a wannabe writer or an author, you will find tips and tricks that suit whatever level you are at. So I hope that you enjoy and you are unfortunately, or fortunately going to find many more books to add to your TBR, so I will invite you to sit back and listen to the episode. Welcome back to Bookshop Chats. In today's episode, I am chatting with Kelly Ohlhardt. Welcome to the podcast, Thank you.
Speaker 2:
I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1:
I'm excited to chat with you, so we are going to dive right in and I would love to hear all about your books. I know you have a couple, like a few and a few that are coming out soon, so I will let you have the floor and share whichever book is calling to you first that wants the attention All right, perfect.
Speaker 2:
So I do have two books out that were traditionally published. That's going to be let's Get Quizzical and To Get to the Other Side, and those are both currently standalones, but maybe in the future that'll change, who knows? And the one that's coming out next is an exciting proposition, and that one I am self-publishing and was actually co-written with my mom, and that one is releasing February 18th.
Speaker 1:
Amazing. I love that. So I would love to dive into a little bit more about sort of the experience of traditionally publishing versus self-publishing. A lot of the authors that I speak with are typically self-publishing, but I know that there are many who want to shoot their shot with traditionally publishing and I know that it can feel kind of really daunting and a little discouraging. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about, like your experience with that.
Speaker 2:
Sure, I guess probably the easiest way to frame it is why I've currently switched because that's probably a question that that would naturally lead to is the reason that I'm currently leaning towards self-publishing is just because of the way that contracts work in traditional publishing tend to lead towards these really long timelines, and so I recently parted ways with my agent and my publisher who handled the first two books, and so in order to go through that process of finding a new agent and then working with that agent on a book and getting it edited and ready for submission, and then to go on submission and sign a contract and sign a contract and those contracts tend to be a year or two or even three years in advance it kind of meant that it was guaranteed it was going to be probably at least four and up to like six years before I had another traditionally published book assuming I'm able to get another one traditionally published.
Speaker 2:
So I wanted to make sure that I was maintaining any fan base that I've managed to build up and make sure people didn't forget about me in the meantime. So my decision to do some self-publishing was really born out of that timeline and just wanting to get another book in front of people is the reason that I kind of made that switch.
Speaker 1:
That is really interesting. I didn't realize the timeline with contracts and such, so that's like super eye-opening.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, if you like, follow authors. You'll see their post, their deal announcements, and those deal announcements often have been in the works for months prior to you seeing them and you'll still see that they are saying that books aren't coming out for another year, two or three to come. So the timeline is very, very slow when it comes to traditional publishing. But as far as the process overall, I guess traditional publishing I the reason that I like it is just because you know you still have to market it. You still have to market yourself. That's not necessarily a difference that I see between self and traditional publishing. Traditional publishing might do a little bit more for you, so it's not 100% on your shoulders but it's not saving you from having to market it. But it is saving you from having to do all of those other logistical pieces.
Speaker 2:
And I'm someone who has a day job. I have two young kids. Those kids are in a million activities, so what little time I have to devote to my own pursuits is already stretched pretty thin when it comes to writing, editing and promoting. So to then throw in the administration piece of okay, am I going to work with an aggregator? Am I going to work directly with Amazon or Ingram or something like that, and doing all of those other logistical pieces like getting your ISBNs and hiring an editor and hiring a cover designer, and just handling all of that really adds a lot of time and energy that my life is not super well suited for.
Speaker 1:
I feel that deeply it is. It is a lot like you don't realize how much, how many little pieces there are. That goes into the yeah, the self-publishing, which is great that you have that creative freedom, but also oh no, I have this creative freedom and I have to do all of it myself. Cool.
Speaker 1:
I'm also not a super decisive person, so having to make extra decisions is also a big oh no for me is also a big oh no for me A hundred percent and I feel like too, with traditionally publishing there's that you know business end of things, that they are very well versed in right Like, so they know what sells right. That's obviously going to be a reason why I think a book gets picked up is it's got something in it that they're like okay, there's some market here for this. So I feel like they probably understand some of the you know logistics better than you know when you're just trying to figure it out on your own Right.
Speaker 2:
Yes, I've definitely made some mistakes in self publishing that have caused some logistical challenges.
Speaker 1:
A hundred percent. Yes, I would love to hear a little bit more about where you like started your writing journey, like how, how did this all come together? Cause I always find that so fascinating to hear how authors kind of like decided that they're going to write a book.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so I've always been a big reader and I always liked writing. So in like grade school even then I would be writing little short stories and notebooks and things like that, and then I kind of never really viewed it as something that I could realistically do. But then I got bored while my husband was playing video games and needed something to do while he was gaming, and so I started trying to write something without really doing any research, like very poorly approached it, and tried to write like a middle, doing any research, like very poorly approached it, and tried to write like a middle grade fantasy, just on a whim, and I got like I don't know 30,000 words into it and then just got stuck and abandoned it. And then came back a couple of years later after my mom had introduced me to Sophie Kinsella's books, and I was like, oh, romance is where it's at, like this is, I feel like this is much better suited to me than middle grade fantasy.
Speaker 2:
And so I tried my hand at that and I liked what came out of it, and so then I was like maybe I should actually try and take this seriously, and so that's when I started immersing myself in the writing community, which I found through Twitter you might find through different avenues now, but I had mostly found it through that and through talking with other writers found mentorship programs, found different craft books that I then started reading and just read, and read a lot in my genre to learn more about what was popular and kind of took it seriously. From there, started making friends with other authors who then became critique partners and cheerleaders and just people to lean on when the process got hard. So going through that and then ultimately writing and editing and querying and getting an agent.
Speaker 1:
I love it. That's so I. I this is so fascinating to me, uh, especially kind of like. I feel like your story kind of echoes mine. Is just not understanding, like I I decided to write without like really understanding the mechanics of like what goes into a novel. Like you know, you know what a novel is, right, beginning, middle and basic, basic stuff, but like when you actually like break it down and learn more about the process, it's so fascinating to see like what actually makes the story like pull the reader in versus how you, how you think it's supposed to go in the early days, Cause that first draft was not not good.
Speaker 2:
Right Yep, Learning all those elements of plot structure and hitting those different beats and character development. There's there was a lot to learn.
Speaker 1:
A hundred percent. So what did you find the most helpful in that journey? Because I feel like for some like writers like myself, definitely I often struggled with like I don't know enough or I don't have a degree, like all of those stories that we you know, imposter syndrome likes to tell us of, like why we can't do the thing. But I always find it fascinating to learn more about like things that you can do on your own time, like you don't necessarily have to have a course, but they're great. But books can be really useful as well, right.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I used a lot of the books that I think are fairly common that a lot of writers use. So Save the Cat writes a novel and Romancing the beat for more specific to the romance genre, and then I also, for character development, follow Story Genius by Lisa Cron. So I use all of those to guide me in this kind of my initial learning pillars. And I also learned from other writers. So I went to some sessions in. There was a writing group that hosted sessions at my local bookstore and so I went to a couple of those. And I met Alyssa K Adams, the author of the bromance book club series. She was running a couple of those so I learned a lot from her about writing and so that was great.
Speaker 2:
And then I think a lot of it was really just in the writing community. So much comes up If you immerse yourself into that community. You're going to learn so much along the way just from your interactions with other people and from networking with other people and going through it with other people who are at the same stage. So it's nice to get to know authors who have been through it, because they have knowledge that you don't have. But I think it's even more important, to connect with authors who are at the same stage as you so that you can really experience that together and lift each other up, because I would be absolutely nowhere if I didn't have the friends that I'd made who helped me along the way with that.
Speaker 2:
And I think, something that to this day continues to grow my writing. Every time I do it is critique reading for other people, because I might see someone making the same exact mistakes that I make, but I do not see them in my own writing, but they might be crystal clear to me when I'm reading something that somebody else has written. So when I'm looking at things with that critical eye and trying to help people, I'll see it and I'll be like, oh, you know what I do that too, and so it always. I always learn something about my own writing every time I do a critique read for someone else.
Speaker 1:
That's so interesting. I never would have thought that. But it makes so much sense because I find, even when I approach like reading from sort of that perspective of like writing, of like how the author put this stuff together, there's things that it it stand out of like, oh, this is how they did this, this is this works here. But I don't know if I would have done that. I like that sort of it kind of gets the wheels turning and it it really kind of yeah, it just brings it to a sort of a visual that you can't see when, when, like you said, when you're reading your own writing, like there's like sort of like a blindness there.
Speaker 1:
Like you're just yeah, you're just too close to it yeah, you can't see what it, what's missing or what's like not working and it, or you like read it 12 times and you're like, how did I not notice this the first time? Like this is this is really obvious, duh. So I think that that's such a great point of having that, um, yeah, just having that resource available for you. So how do you? I know a lot of people, a lot of like authors and writers I've connected with, like are kind of afraid of that, like, oh, like critique partners, like sharing their work, like how did you find that? Was it something that you were just like I just have to do it, it's gonna be uncomfortable, or was it something you kind of like eased into?
Speaker 2:
um, I would say it was a little rocky the first couple times because one my writing was really bad at first and so there was a lot more for them to critique at the beginning, so it needed a little bit of brutal honesty. So I'm very grateful to the people who were willing to be brutally honest to me at the beginning. But, yeah, you just have to take a little, be brave with it and know that you might not find your perfect fit for critique partners. The first couple tries, the first couple tries. You just might not mesh well with them. You might not necessarily agree with their feedback, and that's okay. If it doesn't work with someone, that's okay. You try again with someone new until you find somebody who seems like they're helping you move forward in your goals and that you're able to do the same for them.
Speaker 2:
And I always, anytime I'm providing feedback, I always start it with you know, thank you for trusting me with your words.
Speaker 2:
I know that this is this takes a lot to do, so I always try to preface my feedback with that and make sure that I'm, you know, doing the compliment sandwich thing where I'm including. I'm including great things about it as well as the things that I think could use some work. Um, and then when it comes to taking that feedback I never will respond to feedback the same day that I receive it and read it, nor will I start actioning any of it the same day that I receive it. I always give it a day or two to marinate once I read it. That helps take any emotional response out of it, because it's something that you've worked hard on. It's very natural for you to have a emotional response to a critique of that. So let yourself feel those emotions and then, once you've had a chance to do that, you'll be able to set better, set the emotions aside and look at it with clarity and say, oh yep, I think they are right about this. This is something that I need to change.
Speaker 1:
Yes, that's great advice. I feel like that's a really helpful thing because it can feel like Ooh, like a little bit of a gut punch, but also you're giving your story like it's like the best chance, like the more that you kind of refine it and the better Not even the better, but the more that you write, the more that you kind of push that like comfort zone a little bit, you become that, that better writer and I feel like it really shows in the writing and it creates the, the story that readers can't put down, which ultimately, I feel like, is the goal right.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely and remembering that, like if, if you're getting feedback and you're not changing anything, that's that's probably you having an emotional reaction to it. But you also don't need to change everything just because you receive feedback from somebody. It might not fit with the direction that you want to take the story, and that's okay. You could take 70% of the feedback and leave 30 of it alone. You can. You can um and and that applies at all levels of the industry. So even with traditional publishing, I mean, there might be certain things that are a hard line for them, Like my first book.
Speaker 2:
The publisher was at that time not doing any spice in their books, so that was a hard line for them.
Speaker 2:
I had to edit stuff out, but in general any edits, they said this is what we're suggesting, but ultimately it's your choice. So even when you're facing people who are kind of in what feels like a position of power, you still have the ability to say no, I don't feel like that's the right fit for the book, and oftentimes when I stumbled across that, it was because they were right with the reason why something needed to change, but the way they wanted to change it didn't necessarily align. So look at, well, why did they make this suggestion? What was not clear to them or what felt wrong about that character's response that made them make this suggestion, and how can I accomplish fixing that issue in a way that I feel is more appropriate to my character or something like that? So there's been a lot of times where I've worked with my editors to say, ok, I see why you suggested this. What if I fixed it this way instead, and we've ended up in a better place.
Speaker 1:
That is such a great point and I feel like that's so true of like it's not necessarily like, because there's so many directions that you could take that feedback right, and especially when they're explaining okay. So this is why we're suggesting it, this is why it it may not work here. So, having that understanding and recognizing oh wait, like, this is going to like this is going to yeah, this is going to help the story become stronger, or I have the opportunity to do something slightly different and still hit what it is that they want, and not even what they want, but that that's going to like make that richer story. I feel like that's that's really what their goal is in general is to make it be that story that readers are obsessed with, absolutely. I love that. That's so interesting. That's such a great way of looking at it and really eyeopening for me as well. Just with that sort of traditionally publishing of just feeling like it's. It's nice to know that you still have that like flexibility, and I feel like for some there's almost this sort of misconception that you kind of have to give up a little bit of your creative control.
Speaker 1:
Um, and, like you said, there is that hard line if you're like with certain publishing companies that obviously have like what they're what they don't publish at all, but to have that flexibility to keep the story, yours is huge. Yeah, for sure, I love that. That's so interesting. So you mentioned in the beginning that you are a mom. Also, I am also a mom. All of the children, like it's crazy. So I'd love to hear I always find it fascinating to learn more about how moms fit in writing in like life right, like cause it is so busy and it's so easy to do everything for everybody else and get lost driving all of all of the children to all of the activities. So I, yeah, I'd love to hear what you find works well for you.
Speaker 2:
I? Yeah, I'd love to hear what you find works well for you. Yeah, it was easier before they were in so many activities, because they and before their bedtime started getting pushed back because of those activities, because I was writing and editing and promoting almost exclusively after they went to bed. Because they were going to bed at eight o'clock and I usually stayed up until 10 30,. That gave me two and a half hours each day that I could work on writing stuff and that was great. But then we bumped their bedtimes back to eight 30. And next thing I need that's down to two hours a day and so that's a lot less. And then after that gymnastics ended up going until nine. So then the kiddo wasn't home until, and in bed until, nine 30, and suddenly I'm down to an hour and um, so it's.
Speaker 2:
It's definitely gotten more challenging. I'm still doing the majority of my work at night. Um, I have recently discovered that I'm able to write in the car. I can never edit in the car because I get motion sick, and I've tried writing in the car in the past and have gotten motion sick.
Speaker 2:
But I'm able to draft without looking at the screen, and so I just look at the road ahead of me and I've been drafting in the car, because we travel a lot and I've been getting a lot of words down in the car, which has been great, and I just glanced down every now and then to make sure I'm still typing, um, and haven't somehow gotten out of the window or something like that Um.
Speaker 2:
So that has helped me out a lot, and also the realization that you don't need to have a full hour to be able to accomplish things. So when I went from only writing, if I had at least an hour to sit down and do it to, hey, I've got 15 minutes right now, maybe I can get a couple paragraphs down and getting 100, 200 words down and in those 10 minute windows that I could find throughout my day, whether that be oh, I dropped off the kids a little bit earlier today I've got 10 minutes before I have to start work, or hey, I've got 20 minutes on my lunch break. Making use of those times ends up adding up and getting it done overall, and I write at their activities sometimes while I'm sitting there during practice. I'll bring a laptop.
Speaker 1:
That is very smart. I feel like it just you got to do what works and I think that that's a really great point that you bring up of like it can be easy to get stuck on waiting for that like perfect amount of time, or like it needs to be exactly like this in order for me to like do the thing take, like take time to write or whatever, but those small little pockets of time add up really quickly, right like it's. It makes a difference and I think shifting that mindset of like oh okay, like I can, I can fit it in, even if it's only for 20 minutes or even if I only get 150 words like that still counts and it's still moving the needle forward, even if it's not like a thousand words in one sitting or whatever. The story is that we're telling ourselves.
Speaker 2:
Right Over the course of a week. Those 10 minute windows add up.
Speaker 1:
A hundred percent, definitely. Well, I would love to hear what would be one piece of advice that you'd have for someone who is maybe just starting out their writing journey, or they're kind of like in the middle of their book and feeling a little bit like stuck.
Speaker 2:
I'd say just try to get out of your head a little bit. You can't edit a blank page, so just get words on the page, don't think too much about it. And if you're really stuck, try changing scenery. Try getting out meeting a friend at a coffee shop and writing there, or just sometimes that scenery change can help. Or try jumping to a different scene. Maybe it's just that scene that's defeating you. Say, put in brackets and say I'll come back to this scene later and jump to a different one that you're more excited to write, and that can just get your wheels turning again. So just try changing it up and get the words on the page. And I'll go back to what I said earlier about finding your people, especially people who are at the same stage as you. I just feel like that is so, so important and it's as easy as I mean.
Speaker 2:
I threw out on out on Twitter. It was uh, we were in the middle of pitch wars. We were a bunch of us were applying to pitch wars, which was a pitch contest that's no longer around, but um was a mentorship program and I just tweeted out and said hey, um, if you are also waiting for pitch wars announcements and are anxious about it. If you want to join a group with me, let me know and I'll start a group chat. I started a group chat. We started with like I don't know 30 people and the text was chaotic and within like three days we had it down to 10 people and all 10 of us have been best friends now for years. We've met up and gone to each other's book launches, flown across the country to go to book launches and done retreats together and talk to each other day in and day out, every day. So those friendships have just been so valuable to me.
Speaker 1:
I love that. That's it's so true, like having that community. It just makes such a difference because writing can feel a little lonely. So to have someone to just to connect with and I feel like I'm the type of person that works well, bouncing ideas off of people or just listening, like that kind of like sparks the inspiration and it really helps with that. That writer's block or just feeling like I, I suck or my story is terrible, like that kind of stuff, like having that that team to like support you is paramount, yes for sure, amazing. Well, finally, I would love for you to share how people can connect with you and get their hands on your books.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, what a loaded question in today's current situation where so much social media is up in the air. Right, I know so at this point in time. I am at Kelly Oler O-H-L-E-R-T. I am on Instagram threads, tiktok. I still have a Twitter, but I don't look at it ever really. And I have a reader group on Facebook Kelly Oler reader group. That may all change with where people are going. I think I have a blue sky as well, so I'm in all the places, but probably the best is to just sign up for my newsletter, because I'll always upload, update my socials there, or my website is just wwwkellyolertcom.
Speaker 1:
Amazing. Well, everything will be linked in the show notes so it'll be super easy to click through and find you and your books. And it was lovely chatting with you. I feel like I learned a lot and I always love to connect with other authors and just kind of hear about their process and experience. I find it really fascinating.
Speaker 2:
Well, thank you, it was so nice talking to you as well.
Speaker 1:
I appreciate you having me on. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I would love if you would leave a review and also, if you love the author that we chatted with, go find them on social media and hype them up, comment on their stuff, share their work, even if you can't buy the book, these kinds of things are great ways of supporting indie authors and getting their book in front of new readers. And if you are a writer or author in need of a developmental editor, please reach out. I would love to chat. Everything is linked in the show notes and it would be an absolute honor to be able to get eyes on your novel. So thanks again and listen to the next episode.
